Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject:
OK, well here's my hammanahammana...
I have the skills to progress Neo much more than what I do. If I was dedicated enough, we'd already have native buttons and shite already. We don't. Why?
I've got no reason to do it.
What users may not realize is that this stuff takes time. Not time in the sense of "I read a webpage on my way to work and offered a funny quip"...it takes time. Engineering time. Programming time. And not "easy" programming time, stuff that you gotta rack your brain on.
I already do that 8 hours every day. I've had a very rough time at work for the last half a year with engineering plans not working out and the like. If you've already driven yourself for 8 hours...it's not exactly fun to come home and do that for even 30 mins. much less the hours of time you need to be productive.
Imagine coming home from your job, whatever it is, and then maybe eating dinner and sitting down and doing it for another four hours.
It's a drag.
So what does this imply for a separate users group? Well, I don't know. But maybe just such a UG can understand the human factor to OSS. Support, development, marketing, all of them will always have the same hills and valleys.
Perhaps that's the reason corporate sponsored OSS has risen to the forefront. The good natured soul is always out-performed by the person who needs the paycheck.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:40 am Post subject:
Well Ed, perhaps a well constructed volunteer based UG would be a good thing especially in face of what you said. Not only because people there are more likely to understand the human factor, but as well for carrying parts of the burdon (support and thelike, perhaps some fundraising ...). There always are some people who want an opportunity to share their time and skills with good projects.
To me, the question now seems to be: who would have time and skills and energy and interest enough to bring that a little further (the baby would need a kind of project lead or thelike, I believe), and then: What are the goals you (Patrick, Ed) and we (I hope, ideas from the forums are appreciated too) would exactly have for an UG and how can it be constructed to achieve these goals.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:44 am Post subject:
Orgleser wrote:
To me, the question now seems to be: who would have time and skills and energy and interest enough to bring that a little further (the baby would need a kind of project lead or thelike, I believe),
As an addition: Am I correct in assuming, that neither Patrick nor Ed will belong to the "lead" of an UG (or however the name of a person or team might be)? I must state for me personally - I ll read and write as much as I can but my time does not allow belonging to a leading team or thelike.
Is the question allowed: Who does want?
T.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject:
Well, there is already kind of an informal UG between all the regular folk here and the like...smokey's been kind of doing the public face thing Not sure if organized fundraising would really help, though. I doubt we'll ever get to the point of other highly visible OSS projects. Most all of them have corporate sponsorship.
Languages, we can definitely make more forums. Perhaps, for those who want we could do something on the wiki profiling the active folk here doing support, advocacy, etc.? While a UG may not be able to really push development to warp speed, perhaps it could boost morale (or at least make for a good set of drinking buddies)
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:12 am Post subject:
Yes it is kind of an informal UG and it is fun being here. As far as I understood Patricks original post, the question now is: Should we go a step further?
T.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:14 am Post subject:
As for languages: Couldn't e.g german support be integrated here? If someone asked in german, I would try to answer as far as I can, perhaps some others would, too. And maybe other languages as french could be supported that way too. I personally am not interested in another forum and will not go there (But thats only me)
T.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:
As to other language integration, again, I'm not sure if phpBB could help us out with foreign language forums and language options.
I've got no problem adding international forums or the like here, for sure. In theory, we could also run multiple forum instances and redirect folk based upon their browser's configured language.
There is also a new server that is joining my family this weekend, so I will also be able to host additional forums without impacting trinity.
As to other language integration, again, I'm not sure if phpBB could help us out with foreign language forums and language options.
I've got no problem adding international forums or the like here, for sure. In theory, we could also run multiple forum instances and redirect folk based upon their browser's configured language.
There is also a new server that is joining my family this weekend, so I will also be able to host additional forums without impacting trinity.
Congratulations. However, I might (and this is a very big MIGHT) look at a MacBook Pro soon.
OPENSTEP wrote:
Feel free to converse amongst yourselves
Hmm. Talking to one's self gets quizzical looks. However, put an earpiece in ones ear going to what looks like a cell phone can result in extreme hilaritiy.
Jumping back in.... I meant to reply to this last week but got sidetracked:
Orgleser wrote:
As for languages: Couldn't e.g german support be integrated here? If someone asked in german, I would try to answer as far as I can, perhaps some others would, too. And maybe other languages as french could be supported that way too. I personally am not interested in another forum and will not go there (But thats only me)
T.
Let's ignore the issue of the separate User Group (the actual subject of this thread, but stuff is two entwined to separate now) and focus on the one issue of "Foreign Language Support on trinity".
I think we all agree that non-English support on trinity is something we want to enable as we can handle it (and I think we're in agreement we can handle French and German at this time).
The question left is, do we want to have 1) a separate "instance" of trinity running in French and another in German, 2) one trinity, but a separate forum "International Support" or the like, or 3) simply integrate non-English support into the existing "NeoOffice Support" forum?
I'm of the opinion that 1 is a bad idea, as it's closer to having a 3rd-party list/forum that many of us are not likely to monitor.
2 I think is OK--it'll be separate, but we can still monitor those posts with our existing tool (viewing the forum or the RSS feed)--but it might appear to new users that we're able to do a lot more languages, etc., than we really can.
3 is my favorite, I think. I had previously mentioned having a sticky in Support advertising which languages we could handle, and in another thread, Glenner mentioned something very similar:
Glenner wrote:
it might be appropriate to have a message up front in German/other languages that postings in these languages will receive attention.
I'm not a fan of tons of sticky threads in forums, but at the moment I think maybe one for French and one for German explaining the support policy would not bloat the stickies too much and provide a better user experience for fr/de users than a single sticky thread in English explaining the situation (since the whole purpose is to make those who'd prefer not to speak English feel more welcome/supported!).
So my proposal is this: a sticky thread in each language we feel we can support adequately (fr, de currently) explaining that while the language of the forums is English, we can handle support questions in [language], so simply start a thread with your problem/issue.
Proposed (En) Text (to be translated) wrote:
German-language Support
More comfortable in German?
While English is the common language here at trinity, we know not all NeoOffice users are comfortable using English. Feel free to start a new thread and ask your question in German and we'll do our best to answer it.
What does everyone think?
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 1285 Location: Witless Protection Program
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject:
sardisson wrote:
<edit>
So my proposal is this: a sticky thread in each language we feel we can support adequately (fr, de currently) explaining that while the language of the forums is English, we can handle support questions in [language], so simply start a thread with your problem/issue.
Proposed (En) Text (to be translated) wrote:
German-language Support
More comfortable in German?
While English is the common language here at trinity, we know not all NeoOffice users are comfortable using English. Feel free to start a new thread and ask your question in German and we'll do our best to answer it.
What does everyone think?
Smokey
I'll vote for item #3 also. It provides support and the least overhead to support staff...
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:25 am Post subject:
LemonAid wrote:
I'll vote for item #3 also. It provides support and the least overhead to support staff...
Philip (Looking for more Neo users )
Me too.
German proposal: "Lieber auf Deutsch?
Die Trinity-Foren sind englischsprachig. Aber nicht alle NeoOffice-Benutzer werden ihre Anfragen in englischer Sprache stellen wollen oder können. Nehmen Sie sich die Freiheit, auf Deutsch neue Threads zu starten und Anfragen zu formulieren, wir werden antworten, so gut wir können."
I would add some restrictions: "That support is given by german-speaking users of the trinity-fora, while the developers of NeoOffice are english-speaking. The possibilities of german-speaking users to answer your questions may be limited. The support is given by volunteers on a volunteer basis. *(here my german proposal gives some words on law and guarantees, which I can not translate - please everybody who can have a look at them before taking this proposal and translation into a website)* The use of german language in the trinity fora is at the moment restricted to the NeoOfficeSupport forum."
In german: "Dieser Support wird von deutschsprachigen Benutzern der Trinity-Foren geleistet. Wir bitten zu berücksichtigen, dass die Entwickler englischsprachig sind. Die Möglichkeiten deutschsprachiger Benutzer, ihre Anfragen zu beantworten, können begrenzt sein. *Rechtsansprüche auf Support ergeben sich nicht, Garantien für die Richtigkeit können nicht gegeben werden, der Support ist nicht einklagbar. Wir tun unser Bestes, mehr nicht. Wir verweisen ausdrücklich auf die Einschränkungen, die z.B. hier http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/de/faq.php. und andernorts auf www.trinity.neooffice.org und www.planamesa.com formuliert sind.* Derzeit ist der Gebrauch deutscher Sprache in den Trinity-Foren auf das NeoOffice Support Forum begrenzt."
(We should not promise more than we can handle)
I ask the other germanspeaking people here to have a look at these translations and proposals BEFORE they are applied somewhere.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:31 am Post subject:
I forgot to add one sentence about the restriction:" we do not give anything if an advice leads to loss of data or anything, use advices at your own risk" - something thelike should be mentioned in the foreign languages too (i think it is mentioned elsewhere in the fora?)
German proposal: "Jegliche Haftung für die Folgen der hier gegebenen Ratschläge wird ausdrücklich ausgeschlossen, das gilt auch bei Datenverlust und sonstigen Schäden einschliesslich Hardwareproblemen."
Joined: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 291 Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:09 am Post subject:
Quote:
I ask the other germanspeaking people here to have a look at these translations and proposals BEFORE they are applied somewhere.
Die Übersetzungen lesen sich verständlich und zugleich beängstigend (bin kein Jurist - aber wenn schon: Meines Wissens funktionieren solche "Disclaimer" im deutschen Recht sowieso nicht, d.h. man kann sich auf dieser Weise seiner Pflichten nicht entledigen (falls überhaupt welche bestehen) & manchmal verschlimmert man die eigene Lage, weil man potenzielles "Unrechtsbewusstsein" damit äußert. Zumindest habe ich das mal in Bezug auf diese notorischen "Ich distanziere mich von meinen Inhalten"-Disclaimer auf Webseiten in der c't gelesen).
Whatever: Ich würde deutschsprachigen Support leisten, im Rahmen meiner Möglichkeiten, die sich über NeoOffice Writer, allgemeine Probleme mit NeoOffice und Mac OS X erstrecken.
Finde das eine gute Idee, dann kann ich mir gelegentlich das Fahnden nach englischen Menübegriffen in der Hilfe sparen ...
Short Translation: I would participate in the NeoOffice Support within this forum for German language requests for NeoOffice Writer and general NeoOffice problems.
Does everyone here have an account on the NeoWiki?
I find it's easier to hammer out changes to texts (and keep track of what the current version consists of) in the wiki than in the forum, so I've made a page for these messages here.
I'd like to make sure that what we list in English is the same as what our German support team has drafted (particularly the part that didn't get translated back into English ), and then when the texts are all in sync and everyone agrees with them, then we can have (preferably one of the German-speakers and one of the French-speakers) someone post the the text as a new thread in Support and one of the moderators will make it sticky (if the poster can't; I forget if all users have that ability).
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 241 Location: Scotland
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:48 am Post subject:
I was wondering whether an alternative route to a sticky may be possible. Let's say on the Forums page (http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=Forums). I was thinking about having at the top in the respective language something like "Support in ...."(I like the "Lieber auf Deutsch?"), with a direct link to the Support forum while simultaneously opening a small window with the blurb about limited language support etc. I belive foreign language support should be limited to the Support forum and not be available in any of the others.
As to liability, we do not have to cover this separately for each language/jurisdiction and should just stick to the general NeoO terms which I presume (never looked at them myself) are US/Californian. By accessing the forum servers you do not obtain a chargeable service (Leistung) and the place where such a service (if it was one) would be provided (Leistungsort) does not depend on the place from where the server is accessed.
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Not sure if organized fundraising would really help, though. I doubt we'll ever get to the point of other highly visible OSS projects. Most all of them have corporate sponsorship.
