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trinity.neooffice.org :: View topic - Checking out the competition
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Checking out the competition
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doctype
Oracle


Joined: Dec 08, 2005
Posts: 291
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Checking out the competition Reply with quote

For those who can't wait for an official Alpha announcement: developer snapshots of OpenOffice.org Aqua (build date 2007/5/24, "created by Eric Bachard based on OpenOffice.org", as the About box announces) have been made available as torrents:

http://ooodev.org:6969/index.html?search=aqua

I checked out PPC/en_US, and just as a warning: Crashes often! Additionally, I have no idea how installing and using this build affects an existing OOo/X11 installation (I think there should be no conflict with NeoOffice). There are no instructions or a specific Readme for this build included (as it doesn't seem to be an official release as far as I understand).

Found there:
http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=77987
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aussie149
The Merovingian


Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 607
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: hmmm Reply with quote

Since the last dev version of 2.3, that I came by via some link here I think, I notice that the menus have now followed Ed's lead and are a much lighter colour.
Peter
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Samwise
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Apr 25, 2006
Posts: 2315
Location: Montpellier, France

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's such a shame that OpenOffice.org Aqua has become "the competition". But I think the wording is right, as it's really what's been happening Sad
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jakeOSX
Ninja
Ninja


Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Checking out the competition Reply with quote

doctype wrote:
There are no instructions or a specific Readme for this build included (as it doesn't seem to be an official release as far as I understand).


the official builds don't have readme's even when someone writes them and gives them to the mac project. i don't suspect that this will be any different.

and since it is by eric, based on oo.o, doesn't that make it a fork?
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha yup if it uses the OOo logo or icons for itself it very well may be a violation of their own logo licensing policies since it isn't an official Sun sanctioned build (Sun Microsystems owns the copyright on the OOo logo and icons):

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoArt--OOo_logo_license

Haha their icons aren't licensed under LGPL. Of course this licensing exception isn't listed in the official license terms either. Since OOo itself uses its own icons for display in the toolbars of its user interface, doesn't that make it incompatible with the LGPL license? While our name is trademarked, the icons are all under GPL.

The claims seem to indicate Sun Microsystems is the legal copyright holder of the OOo icons. That gives Sun legal control of the OpenOffice.org brand and the exclusive right to grant its usage for anything (books, t-shirts, website images, etc.).

And people wonder why I consider OOo to be nothing but a veiled corporate front.

ed
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doctype
Oracle


Joined: Dec 08, 2005
Posts: 291
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes me really wonder if that's a good idea: There are plans to push this (or the next) build on Versiontracker and Macupdate.
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doctype wrote:
What makes me really wonder if that's a good idea: There are plans to push this (or the next) build on Versiontracker and Macupdate.


It's not much different in quality from we had 5 years ago so it's nothing but the same path we already followed, and it eventually does lead to success Smile

ed
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My Thoughts
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Sick of people knocking Sun Reply with quote

I am so sick of people seeming to bitch about Sun and how it handles OOo. Yes it is open source but yes Sun is still very active with the project....Image how it may have failed if Sun did not devote so many resources to continue development. Look at how much money Sun still spends on not only developers but everthing else to help make this program a success.....

People wake up and give some credit and stop bitching about the company that has given us this. I grew up with something called respect may be time to show a little......I love NeoOffice but the code that is unique to Neo is what maybe 2% why not give some of that love to Sun also since 98% of the code you are using is from Sun.
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11385
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Sick of people knocking Sun Reply with quote

My Thoughts wrote:
I am so sick of people seeming to bitch about Sun and how it handles OOo. Yes it is open source but yes Sun is still very active with the project....Image how it may have failed if Sun did not devote so many resources to continue development. Look at how much money Sun still spends on not only developers but everthing else to help make this program a success.....


Note to poster: you should at least post a disclaimer that you are a Sun employee when you post from a Sun IP address. Wink

Patrick
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SUN PERSON
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:34 am    Post subject: this better Reply with quote

I have no problem stating I am a Sun employee I had no intention on hiding that fact sorry....My point was really that so much has been given and still people complain is all.
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11385
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: this better Reply with quote

SUN PERSON wrote:
I have no problem stating I am a Sun employee I had no intention on hiding that fact sorry....My point was really that so much has been given and still people complain is all.


I think that you might not be seeing the complexity in this criticism. While it is wonderful that Sun has put so much work into the Windows, Linux, and Solaris ports over the years (and I have no criticism with that), their behavior in the Mac area has been quite aggressive towards us over that last few years. We've taken Sun's open source license, implemented a huge hole in their code, and made no attempt to proprietarize the code. What did we get in return, lots of very negative pressure from the OOo managers and volunteers. So you are surprised when we view their grand magical Mac port as competition?

Just because Sun has done good things in the past does not make it beyond criticism in all that it does. And let's be a little realistic here, OOo spending isn't all donations for the masses. A significant portion of the annual cost is merely redirection of the spending that Sun had to do to pay companies like Aplix to develop a Solaris version of an office suite since nothing exists on Solaris with the added benefit of that it adds a valuable brand to Sun's portfolio. In other words, Sun continues to develop OOo because it makes economic sense for them, not because Sun is trying to throw money away.

Patrick
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SUN PERSON
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: No disagreement Reply with quote

As I stated before I really like NeoOffice and have no reason to switch to any other port Sun or not I will use what I think works the best. I have also donated multiple times to show my appreciation. Yes the Mac community has been ignored and I have read the poor showing by some of the OOo people towards the Neo community and do not agree or support that attitude.

Yes it does appear to make economical sense for them to have OOo but if you look at the early versions of it and compare it to what we have today it is a dramatic improvement also...

Maybe my comment early was a little to critical and should have been worded a little more constructively.
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LemonAid
The Anomaly


Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1285
Location: Witless Protection Program

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Sick of people knocking Sun Reply with quote

My Thoughts wrote:
I am so sick of people seeming to bitch about Sun and how it handles OOo. Yes it is open source but yes Sun is still very active with the project....Image how it may have failed if Sun did not devote so many resources to continue development. Look at how much money Sun still spends on not only developers but everthing else to help make this program a success.....

People wake up and give some credit and stop bitching about the company that has given us this. I grew up with something called respect may be time to show a little......I love NeoOffice but the code that is unique to Neo is what maybe 2% why not give some of that love to Sun also since 98% of the code you are using is from Sun.
Welcome SUN PERSON,

They may be hard to find, but these very issues have been discussed before on these forums.
Our regular community members know how much is owed to SUN:
- it's funny, It was Patrick and/or Ed who pointed out that Neo unique code as maybe 2% ( on the OOo Lists too!)
- Patrick and/or Ed have said several times that if SUN stopped the current level of funding - OOo would cease to exist.
- NeoOffice is a tiny little project who's goal is to bring OOo to the common Mac user. Without that code base there would be NO Neooffice.
- several of the original SUN developers who worked on the SUN to Mac port project are here at NeoOffice (Patrick, Ed, and Dan was here a while ago...)
- The history of the Mac port is listed on the NeoWiki. And scattered about the OOo Wiki.
- Costs, see http://www.ohloh.net/projects/29 for OOo and
- amount of code for Neo - http://www.ohloh.net/projects/4043
- and many more comments

I understand that you are probably ... tired of reading people complain about "how bad SUN is/was", who was mean to whom, and so forth. So are most of the regular NeoOffice Community members.
There are ongoing problems with SUNs support of Mac, and Minor comments aside, most regular folks here a well aware of the debt owed to SUN.
That is why this project "tries" to show that " Actions speak louder than words"

Sorry that you read to many of the complaints and missed the other statements.
I must admit that they sometimes get ... lost in all the noise.
We have a "Ranting" forum for those times when you just want to Yell at the world.
We have all posted there when stress gets to great.

We appreciate your contributions (donations to Neo AND OOo).
We appreciate ALL the efforts to improve OOo for the community (Development, testing, documentation, etc).

Take a deep breath.
There are few who know, and appreciate, SUNs efforts. Most of the other comments online ... are just noise! Sad

Let's hope that the entire community will benefit from the efforts to improve OOo - on ALL platforms.

Philip ( Helping the WHOLE Neo/OOo community - one questions at a time. Wink )

\. Now back to our regularly scheduled ... comments! Wink
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LemonAid
The Anomaly


Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1285
Location: Witless Protection Program

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For additional reading: "Sun does the most for development" for OOo thread.

Philip ( LMT(N)CR Pat Pending! Wink )
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jakeOSX
Ninja
Ninja


Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: No disagreement Reply with quote

SUN PERSON wrote:
As I stated before I really like NeoOffice and have no reason to switch to any other port Sun or not I will use what I think works the best. I have also donated multiple times to show my appreciation. Yes the Mac community has been ignored and I have read the poor showing by some of the OOo people towards the Neo community and do not agree or support that attitude.

Yes it does appear to make economical sense for them to have OOo but if you look at the early versions of it and compare it to what we have today it is a dramatic improvement also...

Maybe my comment early was a little to critical and should have been worded a little more constructively.


i'll talk to this, because i watched it happen.

i've posted a longer history somewhere (i'll find it later). but here is what happened.

sun opens up staroffice to opensource, making openoffice.org. they offer a version for windows, linux and solaris. macs are left out in the cold (this was par for the course, tho)

mac moves to OSX and linux nerds rejoiced. linux programs started getting ported over and the eyes turned to oo.o.

at first sun offered no help. not even server space. eventually ed was granted (yes this ed) cvs access, and set up a page. a page that very explicitly explained that the mac release was not official.

so oo.ox11 comes out (the peasants rejoice). ed says, now can we work on a native one? sun: no, oo.ox11 is good enough for the mac. ed: suck it. he goes on a coding rampage and out comes neooffice/c flaming yeti build which he showed off and a conference.

neooffice was BORN from the fact that sun did NOT WANT TO DO A NATIVE VERSION. so they changed their minds now. great. i am glad that they are providing resources to eric and his porting team. they are a few years behind, but ALL progress is good for the mac.

hell, it was nearly three years into the project before sun put the mac links on the downloading page. AND look! they are still second class citizens. 'other versions' indeed.

sun does a lot of work for openoffice.org, that is true. very true. but they don't do much for the mac.

the people who do hard work for the mac are ed, patrick, eric, pavel, maho and countless other support volunteers. they are the ones who care.
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