Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:58 am Post subject:
Well that law stuff in question was just a proposal (all that belongs to law). Glenner asked if such stuff is necessary. If it is not necessary ... all the better. Everybody confident with leaving the law stuff away here and just sticking with Neos general terms as Glenner suggested? I am no law-man too and not sure about that. What if someone of us gives an advice to the best of his or her knowledge - and it results in losses of data or (wich nearly seems excluded) in hardware errors? (But perhaps this is already answered by Glenners statement)
As for wiki - I until now do not have access to editing and did until now not want to make one and my time will not allow to contribute there more often.
As for german support: I'll help as far as my time and knowledge do allow, particulary Neo-writer, perhaps some general questions on Neo (as stated earlier elsewhere). Thus the limit of german speaking support to the knowledge of the "german support team" (wow ) is very important to me.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject:
As far as german law is concerned, I today found this http://www.ifross.de/ifross_html/art3.html. The page says roughly translated: In Germany the whole Numbers 11 and 12 of GPL are NOT working, because parts of them contradict german law: one can not as in USA exclude all guarante and liability. The GPL-formula "TO THE EXTEND PERMITTED BY LAW" (and similar) is not in force in Germany.
Such, as far as I understood, in Germany other than in USA the usual german "AGB"-Law (and related) is in force INSTEAD of GPLs Numbers 11 and 12 AS A WHOLE. BUT: As free-of-charge downloads of software can be seen as kind of "gifts", the guarantee and liability seem to be restricted to cases of "grober Fahrlässigkeit" (is "heavy" or "rough negligence" the correct US-law term?) respective "arglistigem Verschweigen von Programmängeln" (I dont know the correct english terms, but could be sth like "deceitful conceal of faults"). That means: If one knew his/her software was extremely buggy AND DID NOT state it for downloaders/customers, one would be liable for the results. (As far as I can see not given for Neo, because it works and because everywhere Patrick talks about possible bugs), and second: If e.g. you rushed out untested versions without saying "it is not tested" ... and thelike.
So as far as I understood, there seems to be nothing to worry about, although we can not work with all passages of GPL in Germany (cave: IF the site I found is correct).
There seems to be some reason to think about the international law problems and GPL nonetheless (again if the site is stating correct things): We can as far as I understood not argue, US law is applicable to German versions (MS and others can't either). German law seems to say: If a big part of a deal has connections with Germany (wich seems to be given when a German resident downloads a German version of Neo - without regards where the server resides) and German residents are involved, German law is applicable. (I hope I translated the sense well enough) And, as stated above, German law rules out GPLs Nr 11 and 12.
As far as support in German is concerned: The cited site does not explicitly say anything about it. But if situation is similar for support as for software and its dls, the same rules should apply. So lets not say "we do not know everything and our hints cannot be wrong" and let us not give risky hints and advices (such as "delete your hard disk" or thelike:D as long as it is not REALLY recommended) ...
Hoping to get things clearer and NOT confusing anyone.
Thomas
Last edited by Orgleser on Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:22 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 241 Location: Scotland
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject:
Thomas, thanks for your research. What you are saying about German law is in parts certainly correct. However, the question is here whether German law would be at all applicable. What your information is saying is correct for anybody offering a product or similar within Germany because that constitutes the "closer connection" you are talking about. Just by offering advice (or a product) in a particular language does not establish any specific connection to the countries (7 or so) where this language is spoken. Instead just ordinary conflict of law principles apply and that means that we do not actually get to apply German law. While your source is saying that a "close connection" is established just by using the software in Germany I would call that an interesting view. The other question which he is brushing over rather quickly is whether we can talk about a formation of a contract. Even a Schenkung (gift) requires offer and acceptance between parties, which you cannot have between parties that do not even have any knowledge of each other. The internet has changed many of the traditional legal concepts. However, in the German context what we are far more dealing with is the effect of "Einwilligung" (consent) which would largely preclude liability. I am not saying that I have all the answers (particularly since internet lawyers are still discussing various issues) but I think we should not be over-cautious.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject:
Glenner, thank you for answering. No I don't think we should be overcautious either. And I didn't want to be by my last post. Rather the sense is "as long as we do not intentionally harm somebody (what is not to be expected here) or give absolutely crazy advices (what we did sucessfully avoid until now - why should this change?) everything is ok" This was the sense I personally took of that - even IF german law is (or was) in force.
T.
Last edited by Orgleser on Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total
As far as german law is concerned, I today found this http://www.ifross.de/ifross_html/art3.html. The page says roughly translated: In Germany the whole Numbers 11 and 12 of GPL are NOT working, because parts of them contradict german law: one can not as in USA exclude all guarante and liability. The GPL-formula "TO THE EXTEND PERMITTED BY LAW" (and similar) is not in force in Germany.
I was aware of this. I did not know that there was a replacement set of German laws.
Orgleser wrote:
Such, as far as I understood, in Germany other than in USA the usual german "AGB"-Law (and related) is in force INSTEAD of GPLs Numbers 11 and 12 AS A WHOLE. BUT: As free-of-charge downloads of software can be seen as kind of "gifts", the guarantee and liability seem to be restricted to cases of "grober Fahrlässigkeit" (is "heavy" or "rough negligence" the correct US-law term?)
(I hate cutting paragraphs but for this I will make an exception)
The actual legal term is Gross Negligence and applies when two items occur:
1. There was a defect that could cause loss of life, limb or property (this also includes loss of data.)
2. The one who discovered this does not make such fact public.
This does apply to software and hardware (that is why the standards for aircraft and nuclear power are so high, some say impossibly high.)
Orgleser wrote:
respective "arglistigem Verschweigen von Programmängeln" (I dont know the correct english terms, but could be sth like "deceitful conceal of faults"). That means: If one knew his/her software was extremely buggy AND DID NOT state it for downloaders/customers, one would be liable for the results. (As far as I can see not given for Neo, because it works and because everywhere Patrick talks about possible bugs), and second: If e.g. you rushed out untested versions without saying "it is not tested" ... and thelike.
This is why most folks state that you are using Alpha or Beta level code and to not use it in production. Software that is used in production is expected to behave in a certain way. If you use NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha (this is an example folks) and you loose a years worth of data in a spreadsheet that cannot be recovered, that's your problem. If you are using NeoOffice 2.0 Final and the same thing happens, this becomes Planamesa software's problem and they must do as much as practiable to recover the data (and this can get very expensive.) That is why release level software must be throughly tested, even attempting to do things that you should never do with the software package (and I had to go through this when I was a software evaluator.)
Orgleser wrote:
So as far as I understood, there seems to be nothing to worry about, although we can not work with all passages of GPL in Germany (cave: IF the site I found is correct).
There seems to be some reason to think about the international law problems and GPL nonetheless (again if the site is stating correct things): We can as far as I understood not argue, US law is applicable to German versions (MS and others can't either). German law seems to say: If a big part of a deal has connections with Germany (wich seems to be given when a German resident downloads a German version of Neo - without regards where the server resides) and German residents are involved, German law is applicable. (I hope I translated the sense well enough) And, as stated above, German law rules our GPLs Nr 11 and 12.
Let me restate this so that I am sure that I understand this:
If number of German citizens download and use NeoOffice in German, even though the software originated in the U.S., German laws apply and we can be brought to bear against them.
[deleted paragraph about support as it is a restatement of the above.]
Here is my 'take' or opinion on this. If Patrick continues to provide high quality software that does what it states it does, we have nothing to worry about. If the software does not do what it is supposed to do, Patrick (and the rest of us) have to either fix the problem or withdraw the software until it is fixed. Useage of Alpha/Beta software, which is resonably expected to contain software anomolies, commonly referred to as bugs due to their historical nature, as at the person using the software's own risk.
Now as to support, I'm in favor of using my, your, their native tongues. However, if a problem is large enough, this has to be brought to the main support team's attention. I do speak a little German, a little French, but mostly I speak, read and write American English. Thus, to fully understand the problem, it would have to be presented to me in that language. What language the discussion started in is in my opinion meaningless. If you wish to act as the intermediary between German speaking people and the support team, I have no problem with this. You will have to take responsiblity if meaning is lost in translation, and that will happen. However, I don't hold myself as high and mighty, Lord above all. I make my mistakes too (and when I do, they tend to be big ones...)
I say: Go for it! Have fun, support us and learn as well.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject:
Hello James, on the whole problem please note Glenners view above wich is different from what the website cited by me said.
Some points:
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
If you use NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha (this is an example folks) and you loose a years worth of data in a spreadsheet that cannot be recovered, that's your problem. If you are using NeoOffice 2.0 Final and the same thing happens, this becomes Planamesa software's problem and they must do as much as practiable to recover the data (and this can get very expensive.)
Is this US law? Even with GPL?
Quote:
If number of German citizens download and use NeoOffice in German, even though the software originated in the U.S., German laws apply and we can be brought to bear against them.
Yes as far as I understood the respective site and if this site is correct. But I want to point out I am no lawyer - Glenner has a different point of view. Even if German law applied I am not worried, because liability and guarantee are restricted by this law to a reasonable point of gross neglegience (again: this is what I understood, don't take it as mere facts)
Quote:
I say: Go for it! Have fun, support us and learn as well.
Here is my 'take' or opinion on this. If Patrick continues to provide high quality software that does what it states it does, we have nothing to worry about. If the software does not do what it is supposed to do, Patrick (and the rest of us) have to either fix the problem or withdraw the software until it is fixed. Useage of Alpha/Beta software, which is resonably expected to contain software anomolies, commonly referred to as bugs due to their historical nature, as at the person using the software's own risk.
In any case, Germany does not have the runaway legal culture that the US does. No judge would agree with a damages liability suit about this kind of software - and NeoOffice is well-tested before a final version is released. Nothing man-made is perfect, after all, and an office suite is one hell of a complex things.
If you are still worried, one of my best friends is on track to become a judge. Her field is criminal law rather than liability, but I could ask.
Relax and best wishes,
Oscar _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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) is very important to me.
