Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: www.planamesa.org will be offline
FYI. We found the cause of bug 1373. This bug, which is a bug in the Apple installer, only occurs on Mac OS X 10.3.9 or earlier but when it happens, it will cause NeoOffice to accidently delete the "/" directory!
Even though this has only affected one person in the last two years, it is a very big issue and so I have temporary disabled the www.planamesa.org site until I can respin a NeoOffice 1.2.2 build with a fix that can detect this Apple bug early in the installation cycle so that I can force the installer to abort the installation before it causes any harm.
Note that this bug affects every NeoOffice and NeoOffice/J installer ever released to date. So because the NeoOffice/J 1.1 installer is affected by this bug and I no longer have a Mac OS X 10.2 machine to rebuild it, I am immediately removing all NeoOffice/J 1.1 binaries from the NeoOffice mirror network and discontinuing sales of NeoOffice/J 1.1 CDs.
For those who are curious what the Apple bug is, the bug is that Apple's installer tool is run when you have 1) logged into Mac OS X 10.3.9 or earlier with Hebrew, Arabic, and maybe other certain languages and 2) run Apple's installer tools, Apple's installer tool will ignore the installation directory specified in the installation package and will use "/" as the installation directory instead. Since the NeoOffice patch, language pack, and help installers do some cleanup within the installation directory at the end of installation, the installer dump all files into the "/" directory and then will tell NeoOffice to do its cleanup in the "/" directory instead of the installation directory that my installation package has specified.
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: www.planamesa.org will be offline
pluby wrote:
For those who are curious what the Apple bug is, the bug is that Apple's installer tool is run when you have 1) logged into Mac OS X 10.3.9 or earlier with Hebrew, Arabic, and maybe other certain languages and 2) run Apple's installer tools, Apple's installer tool will ignore the installation directory specified in the installation package and will use "/" as the installation directory instead.
Not a good thing.. Has Apple responded to this bug yet? _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject:
5 cents says Apple won't care since it doesn't affect Tiger (or, by extension, Leopard).
It took months to get an answer to our Tiger Installer.app bug regarding the missing semicolon answered which, ironically and sadly:
1) Was solved by Terry, who is no longer with us.
2) Apple "solved" by not fixing Installer.app 2.0, but instead revising their documentation on developer.apple.com to include the missing semicolon in all of their localization examples that was required by Tiger, fronting that it was required by Panther and all previous OS X Installer.app versions as well.
Unless you pay them the big bucks or can make a big public stink, Apple's no different than any other company. They don't give a flying f.
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: www.planamesa.org will be offline
ovvldc wrote:
Not a good thing.. Has Apple responded to this bug yet?
Huh? Do you think I have a direct line to Steve Jobs or something?
Let's get real. Apple has never responded to my bugs in less than a year and when they do, it is usually a "we'll look at this" type of comment.
Besides. Even if they fix it, the bug will still exist for anyone who does not download the update from Apple. Since I now know of the bug, that leaves me square in the path of liability if I ignore it.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject:
Patrick, I think you once again have shown how responsible you are by taking Neo off. Very big compliment, one could not have done this better.
Now, perhaps it would be good to say which languages are NOT affected by this bug. Did I understand correctly, the bug affects languages as arabic and hebrew wich write from right to left and use a writing system of consonants combinded with dots and lines and thelike for the vowels (and perhaps other languages) - but NOT languages as English, French, German, Dutch ... that is: those in the roman and/or german (if this is the correct term in english) language families and with roman or german grammatical system?
Well I realize my english is too poor to say exactly what I mean (how does english qualify language families from a linguistic point of view?) But I think it would be very good for the reputation of NeoOffice to tell people explicitly not only where Neo could harm - but also, where Neo does NOT harm (that is in the majority of cases).
I hope not to make additional noise by this - but perhaps this is an aspect to keep in mind.
T.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject:
And on a mildly related issue...
This is also why I hope to control "bootleggers" via the trademark issue. Hopefully anyone scamming folk on eBay at least has the decency to pull their "product" as well.
Remember, if it doesn't say "NeoOffice" let the buyer beware
This issue may also affect the NeoLight installers (still online), but since they are both standalone and also only of interest to people running 10.4 which seems to be unaffected I'm not respinning them yet. I probably will respin them in the next few days to ensure they prohibit installation on any OS earlier than 10.4 (which they should really do anyway).
Now, perhaps it would be good to say which languages are NOT affected by this bug. Did I understand correctly, the bug affects languages as arabic and hebrew wich write from right to left and use a writing system of consonants combinded with dots and lines and thelike for the vowels (and perhaps other languages) - but NOT languages as English, French, German, Dutch ... that is: those in the roman and/or german (if this is the correct term in english) language families and with roman or german grammatical system?
I do not have a list as I can only guess why Apple's installer is replacing the installation directory. Remember, this is Apple's bug and I don't have access to their code.
FWIW, Hebrew and Arabic don't work but I found that English and Chinese do! My approach is to detect the impending problem right before the installer is about to start unzipping files and then force the installer to fail if the bug is occurring.
I have pulled all binaries because warning people as my experience is people do not read closely and, at least in the U.S., people are quick to sue. I barely make a living doing NeoOffice and, quite frankly, I am not willing to risk what little I already have so I am not making any binaries available until I have binaries that are not affected by this bug.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:18 am Post subject:
Well, sorry man, we can't say what it doesn't affect. We know it affects some languages. We don't have a paid 100 person plus support staff. So, since it's something *very serious* (as in it _erases your hard drive_) it's better to err on the side of it affecting everyone than narrowing it down.
Not to mention the bug isn't even in our tool. It's in Apple's own Installer.app.
I don't know about you, but personally I don't want to start doing investigative research into a bug from another company that could potentially erase my entire hard drive. If you know someone with a spare boot partition, time to install each native language on it from a 10.2/3 installer disc, and try it out, please feel free to give Apple your feedback as to which versions are affected
Until something safe can be posted, Patrick has erred on the safe side and deemed all languages and versions be pulled. It's not due to any bug in Neo, but rather Apple's own Installer.app 1.x. We can't fix bugs in something we don't own
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:35 am Post subject:
Patrick, Ed, I fully aggree with pulling Neo offline as long as there isn't enough safety. My thought was just to help Neos reputation by showing where it works (and this should be the majority of Northern and Southern American and European languages, afaics from the places users respond from in the Neo Fora and Bugzilla and as Patrick stated here even Chinese). But you are very correct - as long as there is no safe and secure thing it's better to be as strict as you are.
Ed said:
Quote:
Well, sorry man, we can't say what it doesn't affect. We know it affects some languages. We don't have a paid 100 person plus support staff. So, since it's something *very serious* (as in it _erases your hard drive_) it's better to err on the side of it affecting everyone than narrowing it down.
As long as we do not know what it doesn't affect, my idea to give out a list of non affected languages is wrong, sorry if I made too much noise.
I'm running through the wiki putting up alerts, removing old download links, and noting on the CD Distribution page that Neo/J 1.1 is no longer to be distributed.
I think I've gotten all the English places where it's prudent to alert/remove links, and I've made a stab at the translated versions, but I'm rather tired, so I'd appreciate it if folks will 1) look over the English version and suggest (or add themselves, where applicable) places where a warning needs to be added or links need to be deleted or whatever and 2) make sure that everywhere that has an equivalent French or German page has also been updated properly.
The German wiki doesn't have a "Legacy Information" page (where the full warning text is) and I've already gotten a translation of the Main Page warning from Orgleser (danke!), so on the German wiki, it's just a matter of inserting the template code where needed. The French wiki still needs both new templates translated (and then used in the alertbox templates on the appropriate pages).
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
No need to squeeze it all in tonight. Because I need to coordinate all of the mirrors, I expect it will take 48 to 72 hours after I finish uploading the new Neo 1.2.2 binaries tomorrow before there are enough mirrors in place.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:26 am Post subject:
Orgleser wrote:
As long as we do not know what it doesn't affect, my idea to give out a list of non affected languages is wrong, sorry if I made too much noise.
From what I can gather, the best that we can do is say it doesn't affect anyone running 10.4/Tiger or higher. Users of earlier OS X versions are recommended to upgrade (when available) regardless of language.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:31 am Post subject:
Also, it should be noted that right now the fix is planned for 1.2.2, which will require Mac OS X 10.3 or higher. Mac OS X 10.2.x users are recommended to update to 10.3, if possible.
This problem would be known to affect users with 10.2.x who are using either Hebrew or Arabic languags either regularly or sporadically. It may affect 10.2.x and 10.3.x users in other languages as well, but it's unknown.
If anyone has details one way or the other, feel free to post For now, it looks like the only 100% guaranteed solution is to update to Tiger/10.4 where you have Apple's Installer.app version 2.0 or higher :/
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: To everyone who has been following this thread
My name is Aviah Morag, and I am the user who reported this bug. I posted this after the installer destroyed most of my hard drive twice. The circumstances in which it happened are rather uncommon, but it can easily happen to anyone who uses NeoOffice in Hebrew or Arabic.
Microsoft (and Apple) have an easy solution for Hebrew and Arabic-speaking Mac users who want to use Office in their native languages - they can buy Windows machines. Patrick's work is the difference between keeping our Macs, or giving them up.
I would like to comment Patrick for his responsibility in handling this issue. I'm sure that the easiest way out, given how few users this affects, would be to can Hebrew and Arabic support entirely.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:45 am Post subject:
Thanks for the words of support.
FWIW, there was a problem similar to this in one of the OOo 1.0.x installers I did a long time ago that was limited to /Applications, still bad. Due to circumstance, folks were still reporting experiencing the same nuking bug nearly a year after the installer was fixed due to people downloading stale links from mirrors.
One of the big problems with opensource is that folks mirroring things dont' keep their mirrors up to date. This is the big reason why the main d/l pages are gone until Patrick can ensure everything is fixed.
Even if it's just one person a year from now, there's no reason they should have to suffer the side-effects of something so nasty especially if it's already been fixed.
The folk who do our mirrors are *extremely* helpful and responsive Things will be back online as soon as possible.
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For now, it looks like the only 100% guaranteed solution is to update to Tiger/10.4 where you have Apple's Installer.app version 2.0 or higher :/