I will ask for developpers in french forums and will propose them to start with the easyest projetct you proposed (the filepicker?).
And now, my questions...
- current Neo CVS is based on OOo1.1 so developpers will get a Neo looking like OOo1.1 after compiling and installation? does it build and install? does Neo run? Can they build it on their daily mac or is it dangerous?.
- are the build instructions up to date?
- OOo 2.0 includes things to make the port easier (When will mac porters begin to benefit from these things?).
- How far are we from an something like Aqua port (about non graphic features, about graphic features)?
- is OOoX11 work usefull for the Aqua port (I talk about non graphic features of course)?
- Have you found a solution for almost all the problems and the main thing is to apply these solutions to the entire software?
- Will you be carefull with you new car (case an usefull Ed is a living Ed)?
- Do you have 2 spare tyres (I asked it on your other post but you did not answer)?
are you using native widgets? isn't there a small version of the pulldown menu?
i wish i had the patience to build it, but i don't think i do. i have basic objC+cocoa skills, and some java, but i don't think i could help. i'd test a binary, though (*hint* *hint*)...
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:55 am Post subject:
If my eyes are serving me correctly, that screenshot is from one of the QuickDraw 1.0.x variants (e.g. the Yeti) since it doesn't have Ximian icons Screenshots in foreign languages are definitley helpful. Should we perhaps set up a full on gallery?
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 1:25 am Post subject:
Some answers:
fred78 wrote:
- current Neo CVS is based on OOo1.1 so developpers will get a Neo looking like OOo1.1 after compiling and installation?
Well, it'll look closer to the Ximian 1.1 with Aqua widgets and a lot of screen drawing errors.
fred78 wrote:
does it build and install?
Build, yes. Install, if you can follow directions. It's quite a manually intensive process to assemble the bundles and helper executables.
The 1.1 based Neo does not yet have correct configuration code...I just think I worked that out for OOo 1.1.1. So for now it has to be installed directly into the bundle, and the bundle can't be relocated nor the user account switched when trying to run or debug.
fred78 wrote:
does Neo run?
Well...it launches. It's got graphics glitches and memory leaks, but getting it to launch and starting to draw is half the battle.
fred78 wrote:
Can they build it on their daily mac or is it dangerous?.
mmm...that depends on the developer. It should be mostly safe provided developers use no spaces in their hard drive names or directory names and stick to normal ascii characters in naming (e.g. no Unicode chars). Some of the scripts may not be properly quoted which can lead to bad things.
fred78 wrote:
- are the build instructions up to date?
Check out the wiki I haven't had time to fully update the ones on the website yet.
fred78 wrote:
- OOo 2.0 includes things to make the port easier (When will mac porters begin to benefit from these things?).
Right now Neo's still marching to its old drummer...kind of like a hackish predecessor to the NWF. The overall strategy with canvases, changes to svx, etc. are still all up in the air for 2.0. It's the 1.5 (or whatev.) NWF that's the most far along.
AFAIK there's no Aqua work currently ongoing in OOo. Things have been focused on getting 1.1.1 functional and out the door.
fred78 wrote:
- How far are we from an something like Aqua port (about non graphic features, about graphic features)?
In terms of full Mac OS X integration with drag and drop and such, probably a ways away. I can't even ballpark the effort any longer as OOo itself is too dynamic.
fred78 wrote:
- is OOoX11 work usefull for the Aqua port (I talk about non graphic features of course)?
Definitely. Since OOo is so dynamic, much of the development time is spent simply on "maintenance" like getting new versions to compile, checking CVS merging, doing bug fixing, etc. Just doing X11 maintenance is a full time task for a volunteer. If new releases can't even compile on a Mac for X11, then there's no hope of ever even beginning any kind of native work.
There are also a whole plethora of projects that are non-GUI projects which can be implemented for X11 and recycled for Aqua style builds or even NeoJ. An example from those design documents is the "Address Book" driver to allow OpenOffice.org to integrate with the native OS X address database. A few other non-GUI examples: native clipboard support, Objective-C UNO bridge (really a needed enabling technology), AppleScript bridge, REALBasic support...I'm sure there are many more. Those are just the ones I've thought of.
fred78 wrote:
- Have you found a solution for almost all the problems and the main thing is to apply these solutions to the entire software?
I think that we're on the right tack with the NWF and with the majority of the thoughts of how to port the software to CoreGraphics/Cocoa (Dan, feel free to disagree).
There is still a real big unsolved problem, though...
Redesigning the interface.
The OOo interface itself is definitely un-Mac-like. While we probably won't be able to directly scrap it under the auspices of the OOo project, I'd love to provide a more Mac tailored interface through Neo or an OOo incubator project. This implies using things like sheets and drawers, Cocoa style toolbars, and perhaps adopting several different 'modes' for the software (e.g. simple, advanced, OOo traditional, Word 5.1 clone, etc.).
It's my opinion that we can't simply make something look like it uses Aqua widgets without having that true Mac polish. And for that we need...user interface design experts!!!
fred78 wrote:
- Will you be carefull with you new car (case an usefull Ed is a living Ed)?
I'll keep it chrome side up I'd probably be more concerned about me on my motorcycle...
fred78 wrote:
- Do you have 2 spare tyres (I asked it on your other post but you did not answer)?
hehe...sorry I missed that. May have skimmed over it.
Prowlers have no spare tires at all. Only the four on the rims. Caveat: they're four run flat tires, so you still drive on them for 50-100 MPH with little to no tire pressure. Thankfully riding a motorcycle for years has made me incredibly sensitive to avoiding garbage on the road and checking tire pressures...and, unlike my bike, the Prowler has a low tire pressure warning gauge on the dash
Let me know if there are any other questions. Should we put this into a FAQ or something on the main page?
I had to write a review about "OOo on Wac" just before the OOo1.03 release.
I went to a friend's house to make some screenshots (OOo X11 and Neo) because I have no mac. I had no time (and no skills) to build a version and I downloaded that binary.
It crashed very quickly but my friend was impressed. He enjoyed OOo X11 too (he uses it dayly now).
AFAIK there's no Aqua work currently ongoing in OOo. Things have been focused on getting 1.1.1 functional and out the door.
I met Jörg Heilig in november and asked him about OOo 2 and the mac port. He explained that Sun doesn't work on the mac port but that the V2 would just include features to "plug" native widgets quite easily.
Code:
Definitely. Since OOo is so dynamic, much of the development time is spent simply on "maintenance" like getting new versions to compile, checking CVS merging, doing bug fixing, etc. Just doing X11 maintenance is a full time task for a volunteer.
I suppose it's the same for any platform. The difference is that there are too few volonteers for the mac platform.
Quote:
A few other non-GUI examples: native clipboard support, Objective-C UNO bridge (really a needed enabling technology), AppleScript bridge, REALBasic support...I'm sure there are many more. Those are just the ones I've thought of.
Which is the easier according to you (I thought about the file picker...)?
Code:
Redesigning the interface.
On that point, I think that we must be carefull. If we lack of manpower to port the common app, redesign an maintenance of all OOo interface would be a HUGE thing (according to me) and the mac versions would be released way after other platform's.
I think that mac people can understand that a cross platform has a quite common interface.
With time, me can influence OOo developpers to accept more and more "Mac like" interface features (like it already has many "Windows like" features.
I think that the more important for now is to release things for users (1.1 X11, Neo/J) and communicate on developpment progresses and needs. This shouldn't be your task (you skill are too precious).
Code:
Should we put this into a FAQ or something on the main page?
Sure, Do you have a webmaster who can do it (shouldn't be your task)?
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:44 am Post subject:
fred78 wrote:
He explained that Sun doesn't work on the mac port but that the V2 would just include features to "plug" native widgets quite easily.
Yup, that's the "NWF". Dan's one of the primary architects
fred78 wrote:
Code:
Definitely. Since OOo is so dynamic, much of the development time is spent simply on "maintenance" like getting new versions to compile, checking CVS merging, doing bug fixing, etc. Just doing X11 maintenance is a full time task for a volunteer.
I suppose it's the same for any platform. The difference is that there are too few volonteers for the mac platform.
You did hit the nail on the head. It really is a problem faced by all the platforms. The ones that Sun supports are always obviously ready since, well, the Sun engineers work on them actively. They aren't really actively concerned about things that break on other platforms that are the "OOo" only platforms and not StarOffice platforms. The result is that, more often then not, all of the other volunteer platforms that are not really closely related to one of those Sun targeted platforms get left in the dust (Tru64 and FreeBSD are prime examples aside from OS X...).
fred78 wrote:
Quote:
A few other non-GUI examples:...
Which is the easier according to you (I thought about the file picker...)?
A lot of that depends on the particular skills of each developer who's interested. For a person who's a hardcore Objective C hacker, the ObjC bridge may be the easiest. For someone who's not really a Mac programmer but knows XSLT, the Keynote filter may be the easiest.
I was actually just talking to Patrick recently and we both agreed that this is the kind of product that requires specialized skills. I tried to put forth a variety of ideas to be able to better tailor work to everyone's different strengths.
fred78 wrote:
redesign an maintenance of all OOo interface would be a HUGE thing (according to me) and the mac versions would be released way after other platform's.
Oh yeah, I completly agree with that logic. The idea (it may be mentioned somewhere else in a forum) is that we can maintain Neo/J as the straight "port" that looks identical to other platforms and always tries to maintain absolute feature parity with OOo on other platforms and eventually be able to be released on a nearly identical schedule. The idea is then to make Neo into the Mac-specific darling...it's got only a feature subset and a different release scheudle but is purely Mac-centric in focus and in design. The idea is to make it similar to the relationship between the Mozilla and Camino projects.
fred78 wrote:
I think that the more important for now is to release things for users (1.1 X11, Neo/J) and communicate on developpment progresses and needs. This shouldn't be your task (you skill are too precious).
That's how we've all been progressing. We've punted on the big redesign (the "Mac schism"?) in favor of delivering functionality first. People and press always gripe that there's no native OOo for Mac...bull. There is. It's OOo Mac (X11). Yeah, it may not have the pretty buttons and polished interface, but it's already a fully functional office suite that runs on OS X. Same goes for other great applications like Abiword and The GIMP. They're here, they're now, and they're definitely "native". None of them run in an emulator like Virtual PC...all of them run straight on your PowerPC and directly leverage the Unix base of OS X. That ain't too bad for things that are free. It's a testament to Apple and OS X that these amazing applications can now be run on a Macintosh, unlike OS 9.
If you're a user who's not actually concerned about functionality and really really really need the pulsing blue buttons right now from your office suite, you can go ahead and purchase Office v. X. It's a great product for the price. Frankly it speaks a lot of the feature set of OOo that it's even considered to be one of its competitors, but even OOo on Win32 isn't in the same class just yet
fred78 wrote:
Do you have a webmaster who can do it (shouldn't be your task)?
Right now there is no dedicated webmaster for Neo or for OOo's Mac pages (porting/mac), so updates are done piecemeal in spare time. One of the main reasons I set up trinity was to help distribute the effort. If anyone wants to try to do full time webmaster I'm sure it'd be great for keeping everything up to date and perhaps moving away from my Netscape 2.0 inspired website design skills
Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:55 am Post subject: staying up-to-date and attracting more developers
Ed,
So it's hackers which were preventing me from getting to your site awhile back. Shame.
Anyway, I really want to see this project flourish and I have a few pertinent requests:
I have checked the porting.openoffice.org mac page time and time again and there is no news, and no clear status update of what is happening.
A simple: 1.1.1RC3 with installer is in the works
would do wonders for the masses out there checking that page wishing something new would show up, or some hope of something new.
I was beginning to think _nothing at all_ was happening until I stumbled upon this forum tonight.
A simple plea on the self same page, at the top, "DEVELOPERS NEEDED - try your hand at bringing this great sw to the mac" would also seem apropos, given your statement about lack of ability to attract developers.
It is my opinion that thousands like me are looking at that page, assuming nothing is happening, and forgetting about OOO-mac. Including your developers.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:54 am Post subject: Re: staying up-to-date and attracting more developers
fddicent wrote:
It is my opinion that thousands like me are looking at that page, assuming nothing is happening, and forgetting about OOO-mac. Including your developers.
Well, the guys who were working on the 1.1.1 installer didn't do anything to update the page and I don't really have the time to be a webmaster and do everything else For figuring out the status of OOo proper it's usually best to look at the dev@porting mailing list. The volume can get really high though (too high for me to track on a daily, or sometimes even weekly basis).
As to the 'progress' in this specific forum...
NeoOffice is a derivate of OpenOffice.org but aren't directly affiliated with OOo and Sun Microsystems. The reasons are many. But as a result, no new "Neo" news or info can go up on the OOo site itself since progress on Neo (however slow it may be) has nothing to do with OOo.
Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:52 am Post subject: This would be too easy, right?
Given that...
a) SuSE is shipping a Qt-interfaced OO 1.1.1
and
b) Qt3.2 for Mac OS X exists and is GPL
Would it not be easier to get a 'Mac(er)-looking' OpenOffice in the *short* run by laterally moving the Qt/Linux code to Qt/Mac, and taking advantage of Qt's use of the Apple widgets? This won't get you native file dialogues (most important), native print dialogues (next most important), and I don't *think* it'll get you menus-in-the-menu-bar (but I could be wrong), but it seems a reasonable shortcut to pursue. After all, there were screenshots of KOffice done in this manner floating around not too long ago.
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For figuring out the status of OOo proper it's usually best to look at the dev@porting mailing list. The volume can get really high though (too high for me to track on a daily, or sometimes even weekly basis).