Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:01 am Post subject: Re: oops, print hangs now?
antonrang wrote:
open a spreadsheet, hit command-p (or choose print from the file menu), print dialog appears ... and is hung.
I can reproduce this. I open all sorts of file, press command-P, and as expected, the native print dialog appears. Then when I print, the menus are disabled until the end of the print job (or I press the native cancel button).
If you can reproduce the hanging, can you check your system crash log after you kill Neo/J to see if Mac OS X has added anything related to Neo/J? If so, can you open a bug in Bugzilla - http://bugzilla.neooffice.org/ and paste the crash log in the bug?
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:19 am Post subject:
JKT wrote:
The dilemma becomes - what if I find I preferred it the old way? Do I need to start using Windows again and give up my Mac?
This is actually a good question to address...
It's not really that hard from a programming perspective to turn one on or the other. We can probably add some type of prefernce or special launcher to get it done. Do folks think the ability to switch between the X11-style in-window menubars versus the standard Mac OS X menubar is something that should be left configurable for individual users? Also, please note that it is possible for us to display both at the same time. Not showing the in-window menu for the first native-menu patch, though, is more reflective of what we expect new users would prefer for the sw when first using it w/o prior exposure to OOo.
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:31 am Post subject: Re: oops, print hangs now?
pluby wrote:
If you can reproduce the hanging, can you check your system crash log after you kill Neo/J to see if Mac OS X has added anything related to Neo/J? If so, can you open a bug in Bugzilla - http://bugzilla.neooffice.org/ and paste the crash log in the bug?
Patrick, I think I'm seeing the same thing (10.3.5, NeoJ 1.1 Alpha 2 Aqua Menus patch, fresh ~/Library/Neo... settings folder). Once the print dialogue is invoked, it is "frozen" and waiting a few seconds produces a spinning beachball. Since it is frozen/hung rather than crashing, I couldn't find anything in any logs (system, console, and several crash logs that seemed like they might be relevant).
Do folks think the ability to switch between the X11-style in-window menubars versus the standard Mac OS X menubar is something that should be left configurable for individual users? Also, please note that it is possible for us to display both at the same time. Not showing the in-window menu for the first native-menu patch, though, is more reflective of what we expect new users would prefer for the sw when first using it w/o prior exposure to OOo.
I think y'all made the right call on this one...native menus are the way to go. Aside from all the little glitches and bugs that are showing up here and in bugzilla, I can't think of any reason a Mac user would have for wanting traditional OOo menus. If they really want X11-style in-window menubars, they can use OOo Mac OS X (X11).
It took me about 30 secs to get used to the new menus (once I finally got them to display ), and it made NeoJ jump 100 points on the road to feeling like a real Mac app.
There's one little, minor, tiny visual "glitch" that my eye did catch, though:
The little "separator" line between the "in-window" menus and the first toolbar is still there and looks a little funny as it is the first thing touching the native titlebar.
Oh, back to what I was saying about Ed's question. Further, I'd argue it'd make support and testing easier if there were no option to switch between the two modes...I see this as one of the "silly" types of prefs that OSS often falls prey to.
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:23 am Post subject: Re: oops, print hangs now?
Quote:
If you can reproduce the hanging, can you check your system crash log after you kill Neo/J to see if Mac OS X has added anything related to Neo/J? If so, can you open a bug in Bugzilla - http://bugzilla.neooffice.org/ and paste the crash log in the bug?
Patrick
I have similar but not identical situation. I can print directly and I can print via cmnd-P. However, as I have more than one network printer installed, I have discovered that I cannot change printers in the print dialog as it hangs every time. Similarly, any attempt to change any of the other printer settings via the drop-down menus in the print dialog also result in a hang from which there is no option but to force-quit.
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:34 am Post subject: Swiching between native and window based menus
A user available setting to toggle between having the menus in the window (as in X11) or in the standard Mac fashion in the menubar would be very welcome.
I am using a multimonitor setup (contemplating attaching a third monitor to my setup). When doing a lot of illlustrating work in different programs a lot of screen estate is helpful. If I need to move my Neo/J windows to another monitor than the main, the one with the menubar, it would simplify things if the Neo/J menus followed the window.
To me, using Mac excllusively the last 10 years, having menus in the window is not such a strange thing. This is the way Maxon Cinema 4D has it and I am sure some other programs as well. The old OS 9 version of Nisus Writer have window based menus in their search dialog for instance.
The current work on Neo/J and the pace of it is very exciting!
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:07 am Post subject: Re: Swiching between native and window based menus
Fredrik Stendahl wrote:
A user available setting to toggle between having the menus in the window (as in X11) or in the standard Mac fashion in the menubar would be very welcome.
I have to disagree (sort of). I hope it was clear that I was being sarcastic with my original comment... I think it would be a mistake to make this a general preference setting for everyone to use. However, I would have no objection to it being a "hidden" default (much like OmniGroup having various boolean inputs that can be made in Terminal to activate unsupported/incomplete features in OmniWeb) that could be toggled on and off by those who expressly required it and would therefore know that they were "hacking" the app to get it. I would say that Fredrik's case is atypical to most Mac users needs. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:18 am Post subject: In which log will I find info relating to hang/force quit?
pluby wrote:
... check your system crash log after you kill Neo/J to see if Mac OS X has added anything related to Neo/J ...
In NeoOffice Bugzilla I have created bug ID 178, With Aqua menus, printing causes hang.
Working in Console.app after a force quit of NeoOffice/J, I'm not sure which of the many logs is likely to contain information relating to the hang and/or force quit.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:29 am Post subject:
I know the process for NO/J used to be soffice.bin, but looking in Activity Monitor I now see that the process is called NeoOffice/J. If it doesn't display a crash log for "NeoOffice/J", it might be called soffice.bin instead... could someone clarify the situation for us?
Edit: Also, make sure you are looking in the ~/Library/Logs/CrashReporter and not the /Library/Logs for the crash log (that is, the one in your home directory, not the system level directory) _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: Re: oops, print hangs now?
Anonymous wrote:
I have similar but not identical situation. I can print directly and I can print via cmnd-P. However, as I have more than one network printer installed, I have discovered that I cannot change printers in the print dialog as it hangs every time. Similarly, any attempt to change any of the other printer settings via the drop-down menus in the print dialog also result in a hang from which there is no option but to force-quit.
This is actually what I'm seeing, too. Earlier I was unplugged so I was trying to switch the printer to AdobePDF and actually have it print rather than generate an error message, so it always hung as I tried to access the drop-down menus in the print dialogue.
JKT wrote:
I know the process for NO/J used to be soffice.bin, but looking in Activity Monitor I now see that the process is called NeoOffice/J. If it doesn't display a crash log for "NeoOffice/J", it might be called soffice.bin instead... could someone clarify the situation for us?
Edit: Also, make sure you are looking in the ~/Library/Logs/CrashReporter and not the /Library/Logs for the crash log (that is, the one in your home directory, not the system level directory)
I don't think a crash log is generated unless a program "crashes"--hanging itself in an unresponsive state doesn't count. But I'm no expert. I just know that my last soffice.bin crash log was from Sept 30 and there's no NeoOffice/J.crash.log, either
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:55 am Post subject:
If it is simply a hang rather than an outright crash, Patrick, would you find sample reports useful at all?
If so, to generate a sample report, launch Activity Monitor (in /Applications/Utilities), highlight the NeoOffice/J process, click Inspect and then the Sample button. Wait for the report and you can save it or copy/paste it to an e-mail/bug report for submission. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
This actually was a conscious decision on my part...or perhaps punting becuase I'm lazy.
In most Mac OS X applications, I've rarely seen icons within menus. The foremost exception in my mind is Safari where the .ico file for the server is displayed alongside the name of the bookmark. Aside from that, I've not really seen a major usage of them.
OOo, for contrast, adheres to a very Windows-style paradigm for icons in menus. If a menu item corresponds to a toolbar button in Win32, its menu entry usually has the corresponding toolbar icon displayed alongside it in the menu. E.g. the icon is due to a non-Mac interface paradigm. I couldn't think of any common instance where the menu icons in OOo are "meaningful" in a standard mac sense. In the long run the menu icons are more a sign of the need for an interface redesign then being a crucial part of the actual interface.
Thus was my logic for punting and not implementing the icon support for the NeoJ NMF implementation Any other thoughts or points of view? My goal with NMF/NWF work isn't to make something that looks or feels like OOo on other platforms, but rather something that functions more like a Mac app. This may require more of these types of judgement calls in the future.
ed
No I wasn't speaking about menu's icon, but toolbars.
About the menus, I'm agree with you, it's not the Mac OS X look and feel.
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