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gavagai
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Joined: Oct 18, 2005
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 Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| James3359 wrote: | | gavagai wrote: | | Exactly. According to the Bookends programmer - who tested it with a lot of other Office tools (not NeoOffice - he told me it's not running under "SnowLeopard") - it should be a problem with NeoOffice. |
Did you mean to say "it should not be a problem with NeoOffice"? |
I think it is a problem with NeoOffice (without "not").
| James3359 wrote: |
NeoOffice 3.0.1 and NeoOffice 2.2.6 available under the Early Access Program do now support Snow Leopard. They will be freely available from 27 October. |
That warrants what the Bookends programmer said (NeoOffice is not running under "SnowLeopard") to me, I quoted it and you quoted me.
| James3359 wrote: |
Following Patrick's suggestion you pasted data from Bookends into TextEdit and then from TextEdit into NeoOffice. This showed no problems. This means that there is some problem with the RTF data generated by Bookends which TextEdit is able to cope with, and TextEdit then pastes only correctly formatted RTF data into NeoOffice. |
Sounds reasonably. It matches with my tests, which showed that NeoOffice sometimes get the italics right and sometimes not (I assume: when there are already other italics in the previous text then the italics get distorted).
| James3359 wrote: |
Unfortunately, NeoOffice is unable to cope with the RTF errors from Bookends and this is what is generating the problem. |
a) what makes you think it to be RTF errors? You wrote: there is some problem with the RTF data generated by Bookends which TextEdit is able to cope with .. . This RTF data doesn't have to be erroneous.
b) When TextEdit is able to cope with (and a lot of other Office systems too) NeoOffice should too.
c) When even NeoOffice under certain conditions is able to cope with the RTF data it should be able to cope with the text also when there are already some words in the document.
| James3359 wrote: |
In the meantime, one possible workround (a bit klunky, I know) would be to paste your references first into TextEdit, and then from there into NeoOffice. |
Thanks for the suggestion. There is already a "solution": I copy/paste; then I set the distorted italics in NeoOffice to "standard format"; then I set the now standard formatted text into italics again.
I just brought the failure up with Bookends, because I thought it's their failure. In the meanwhile I think the failure is on behalf of NeoOffice.
| James3359 wrote: |
In your email you mention that Bookends has not been tested with NeoOffice because NeoOffice is not yet running on Snow Leopard. Are you using Snow Leopard? or a version of Bookends designed for Snow Leopard? |
No to both questions. I assume the Bookends people to use Snow Leopard. I have NeoOffice 2.2.5 Patch 14 under Mac OS X 10.5.8
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Herbert
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James3359
The Merovingian
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Location: North West England
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Just a thought...
Bookends says that it works with OOo 3, but NO 2.2.5 is based on an earlier version of OOo - which Bookends may not be compatible with. Have you tried it out with NO 3.0 instead?
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pluby
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| gavagai wrote: | | a) what makes you think it to be RTF errors? You wrote: there is some problem with the RTF data generated by Bookends which TextEdit is able to cope with .. . This RTF data doesn't have to be erroneous. |
Simple. I cannot reproduce your bug when pasting the same text from any other application. If NeoOffice's underlying OpenOffice.org code can parse the RTF data for the same text from other applications without error, then there is a strong possibility that Bookends' RTF does not conform to the most recent RTF standard.
| gavagai wrote: | | b) When TextEdit is able to cope with (and a lot of other Office systems too) NeoOffice should too. |
I think you misunderstand how bug fixing works. We are not going to fix something that we cannot reproduce or can only reproduce with a single commercial product.
Only when we can reproduce it with commonly available Mac OS X applications can we investigate further. Until you can provide steps for us to reproduce it without Bookends (money is very tight and we are not going to use up a dozen users' donations to buy Bookends), we can only provide theories as to what is happening.
| gavagai wrote: | | No to both questions. I assume the Bookends people to use Snow Leopard. I have NeoOffice 2.2.5 Patch 14 under Mac OS X 10.5.8 |
That is a very significant piece of information. NeoOffice 2.2.5 is based on on OpenOffice.org 2.2.1 which was released at least two years ago. No further development on that version is happening other than fixing critical hanging and crashing bugs.
So, what really matters here is does this bug exist in NeoOffice 3.0 Patch 7 or NeoOffice 3.0.1 Early Access? If not, then the most likely explanation is that the OpenOffice.org engineeers improved their RTF data processing in OpenOffice.org 3.0.1 (the version that both of those NeoOffice versions is based on). If the bug still exists, then you still need to provide us with steps to reproduce the bug using TextEdit or other free applications.
Patrick |
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gavagai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| James3359 wrote: | | Have you tried it out with NO 3.0 instead? |
No, I will try it tomorrow.
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Herbert
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gavagai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| pluby wrote: |
Only when we can reproduce it with commonly available Mac OS X applications can we investigate further. Until you can provide steps for us to reproduce it without Bookends (money is very tight and we are not going to use up a dozen users' donations to buy Bookends), we can only provide theories as to what is happening. |
How about sending you the NeoOffice document before inserting and the same document after inserting? Would that help?
| pluby wrote: |
That is a very significant piece of information. NeoOffice 2.2.5 is based on on OpenOffice.org 2.2.1 which was released at least two years ago. No further development on that version is happening other than fixing critical hanging and crashing bugs. |
I did every update the very minute I was asked too. I remember to have installed new NeoOffice versions about twice a year. So I thought I am up-to-date with NeoOffice.
OK, I will install NeoOffice 3.0.1 Early Access at once and try it again. I'll be right back.
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Herbert
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pluby
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| gavagai wrote: | | How about sending you the NeoOffice document before inserting and the same document after inserting? Would that help? |
Unfortunately, it will not help determine if there is a bug in NeoOffice or not. However, if you attach the document after inserting, I can see if there are any simple steps for cleaning up the problem that you can use to workaround this problem.
Patrick |
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gavagai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Patrick,
I think trying a new version of NeoOffice has priority.
Unfortunately I have no access to NeoOffice 3.0.1 Early Access.
I've downloaded NeoOffice-3.0-PowerPC.dmg.
I fear the installation process goes wrong. I've started it at 20:46 and it went OK till step "Installation" which tells me since 20 minutes that the remaining time is approx. 1 minute. The progress beams remains at the same position since then.
Shall I give it more time or interrupt it and restart it or ...?
Here is it now 21:14.
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Herbert
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pluby
The Architect
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| gavagai wrote: | Hi Patrick,
I think trying a new version of NeoOffice has priority.
Unfortunately I have no access to NeoOffice 3.0.1 Early Access.
I've downloaded NeoOffice-3.0-PowerPC.dmg.
I fear the installation process goes wrong. I've started it at 20:46 and it went OK till step "Installation" which tells me since 20 minutes that the remaining time is approx. 1 minute. The progress beams remains at the same position since then.
Shall I give it more time or interrupt it and restart it or ...?
Here is it now 21:14. |
I would kill the the installer and then download and install the NeoOffice 3.0.1 Early Access release.
I am certain that you have access to that release. You just need to try the e-mail address in that you have set for your Trinity account and, if that does not work and you have linked donations to a different e-mail address, use the e-mail address in your Donation Preferences.
Patrick |
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gavagai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Patrick,
I've installed NeoOffice 3.0 Patch 7 with the German language adaption.
Now the effect of the distorted italics is gone BUT now
1) the italics are in another font. Usually I use "Time New Roman" and Copy / Paste gives me exactly this. Now the reference entry is as supposed to except that the italics are in another font (I don't know which one). Or it is the same font but the letters are narrower.
2) That effect is constant, i.e. even in an empty document.
3) Again: copy and paste into Text Edit works fine.
4) Copy and paste from this TextEdit document into NeoOffice works fine too.
5) My correction via "standard format" + "italics" again works.
Shall I live with that or what else shall I do?
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Herbert
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pluby
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gavagai wrote: | | Shall I live with that or what else shall I do? |
It appears that NeoOffice 3.0.1 Early Access' underlying OpenOffice.org 3.0.1 code is now interpreting Bookends' RTF data consistently and the only thing that is not matching is the font name.
My guess is that the font name in Bookends' RTF data is slightly different than what OpenOffice.org's font name matching algorigthm expects so you are getting an unexpect match.
Can you put your cursor in the middle of the pasted italic text and see what the font name appears in the toolbar's drop down list?
Patrick |
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gavagai
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| pluby wrote: |
Can you put your cursor in the middle of the pasted italic text and see what the font name appears in the toolbar's drop down list? |
There is no font name. BUT neither is there a font name in the rest of the pasted text (no italics). The font "Times New Roman" appears only when I put the cursor in the text which was already in the document. AND it appears also when I put the cursor on the first blank line after the pasted text.
When I use the Insert special (uppercase + apple + V) plus the option "unformatted" the pasted text appears correctly in Times New Roman but - of course - the formatted italics are off.
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Herbert
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pluby
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| gavagai wrote: | | There is no font name. BUT neither is there a font name in the rest of the pasted text (no italics). The font "Times New Roman" appears only when I put the cursor in the text which was already in the document. AND it appears also when I put the cursor on the first blank line after the pasted text. |
That is not normal for pasted RTF data. All RTF data should have a font names attached to all text in the RTF data. Even if the RTF data is using a font name that NeoOffice or OpenOffice.org cannot match to, you should see the font name that was passed in the RTF data.
Since you see no font name, the RTF data has apparently not assigned a font name to any of the text and so NeoOffice as using a default font in place of the blank font name. TextEdit, in contrast, is selecting a different default font than NeoOffice.
Although it may be possible to change NeoOffice's default font to match TextEdit's, anyone that you pass this NeoOffice document to will see their default OpenOffice.org or NeoOffice default font. So, I think you may be stuck manually highlighting the text that has no font name and explicitly changing the font to Times New Roman. 
Patrick |
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James3359
The Merovingian
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Location: North West England
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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[Edited to correct links]
It does look as though there are other similar formatting issues which Bookends needs to iron out with other word processing software. I would think this is worth referring to Bookends tech support. If you are running an Intel machine, you could download OOo 3 for Mac and check that the problem is still there before you post to Bookends tech support.
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Last edited by James3359 on Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gavagai
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Joined: Oct 18, 2005
Posts: 111
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| James3359 wrote: | | I would think this is worth referring to Bookends tech support. |
That's what I did in the first place. The error is only with italics from Bookends. But the tech support there swears it's NeoOffice because he tried it with a lot of other text programs and offices. And there it works.
As Patrick worte: I bite the bullet and re-format the wrong text in every reference entry (every one has italics, either the book title or the journal title).
To mitigate the problem I could dispense with the italics at Bookends. But sometimes I create a "works cited" list with Bookends (instead of copy/paste of a single reference) and there it works. These lists are longer and without italics would be more effort to treat.
Thanks a lot for your support.
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Herbert
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