Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:09 am Post subject: OOo 2.0 in Neo/J When?
In what timefram will we able to see a release of NeoOffice/J which includes the 2.0 codebase just released?
Also, the start speed of 2.0 blew me away in comparison with Neo/J. Can we expect to see any greater improvements in this area?
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:39 am Post subject:
...and given that there isn't actually a stable release of OpenOffice.org 2.0 for X11 on Mac OS X yet... this isn't going to happen any time soon
As Smokey infers, the biggest hold up in the launch of NeoOffice/J is actually the loading of the Mac native fonts (which is handled by the OS X process ATServer). As OpenOffice.org in X11 isn't using the native fonts process, it doesn't suffer the delay that NeoOffice/J does. You can speed up the launch of NeoOffice/J by disabling any fonts (use Font Book) that you don't ever use in OS X. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
JKT is correct. Native font loading is much slower than loading X11 fonts. What is worse is that OOo 2.0 X11 will make duplicates of all of your fonts since X11 does not support native fonts and, after you run OOo X11, native applications like Neo/J will have to slog through all of those extra duplicate fonts.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:17 am Post subject:
pluby wrote:
JKT is correct. Native font loading is much slower than loading X11 fonts. What is worse is that OOo 2.0 X11 will make duplicates of all of your fonts since X11 does not support native fonts and, after you run OOo X11, native applications like Neo/J will have to slog through all of those extra duplicate fonts.
Patrick
Is that true - even if they aren't in /System/Library/Fonts or /Library/Fonts or ~/Library/Fonts? I didn't think that any fonts would be loaded if they weren't in one of those three locations. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Is that true - even if they aren't in /System/Library/Fonts or /Library/Fonts or ~/Library/Fonts? I didn't think that any fonts would be loaded if they weren't in one of those three locations.
Yes, it is true. What you are describing is the standard behavior in Jaguar and earlier Mac OS X releases. When the Font Book application was added in Panther, much changed. Now, whenever an application tells the ATS Server to load a font (e.g. when Neo/J or OOo X11 loads the fonts in their share/fonts/truetype directory) notifications are sent to all applications that a new font is available and it will be accessible to all other applications. The location of the font does not matter. These fonts won't show up in Font Book, but if you open a Cocoa app like TextEdit, you will see these fonts.
To test this for yourself, close Neo/J and OOo, open Font Book and delete (not disable) the OpenSymbol and Bitstream fonts. Reboot. Open TextEdit and verify that those fonts are not in Font Book. Close Font Book and start Neo/J with the latest performance test patch. After Neo/J is fully open, open TextEdit and you will see that these fonts are available even though they only exist in Neo/J's share/fonts/truetype directory.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:09 am Post subject:
I'll take your word for it, Patrick - I was just curious to know how and why so thanks for the explanation. Presumably, if you disable any duplicates (actually, will they even show up as duplicates... given your description, it sounds like they won't?) in Font Book, there shouldn't be any problem. I ask because I am currently downloading the OpenOffice.org 2.0 release candidate 3 and I'm fairly sure that it runs Fondu by default. I might not be so tempted to use it (for bug testing purposes, not actual use) if that is the case and will stick with the m130 build I already have.
Incidentally, does this also mean that I can now delete the Open Symbol and Bitstream fonts that older versions of NeoOffice/J installed in my ~/Library/Fonts folder if I want to?
Edit: If I do install the RC3 build, I can presumably delete the converted fonts (I assume that they'll get located somewhere in the package or hidden user folder) afterwards to avoid the problem that way? _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:23 am Post subject:
Ahhh... (slaps forehead in a massive doh! moment) I thought NeoOffice/J had been taking longer to load up than it should, given the no. of Fonts I have active... I also re-installed OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 for X11 recently. Having taken a look just now, it has over 1000 fonts in its share/fonts/truetype folder, so presumably this has been impacting on NeoOffice/J ever since... quickly deletes them... and NeoOffice/J now takes less time to open! Thank you Patrick. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Ahhh... (slaps forehead in a massive doh! moment) I thought NeoOffice/J had been taking longer to load up than it should, given the no. of Fonts I have active... I also re-installed OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 for X11 recently. Having taken a look just now, it has over 1000 fonts in its share/fonts/truetype folder, so presumably this has been impacting on NeoOffice/J ever since... quickly deletes them... and NeoOffice/J now takes less time to open! Thank you Patrick.
IIRC, OOo 2.0 X11 will recreate any "missing" duplicate fonts upon startup so deleting the duplicates only works for the older OOo 1.1.2 X11 release.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:42 am Post subject:
In that case, I'll stick with the fondu-less m130 build - I'm only using it for comparisons with NOJ/OOo1.1.2 for bug reports anyway. Cheers, Patrick. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
In that case, I'll stick with the fondu-less m130 build - I'm only using it for comparisons with NOJ/OOo1.1.2 for bug reports anyway. Cheers, Patrick.
I am seriously thinking of adding code to the next Neo/J Performance Test Patch that will detect these duplicate OOo 2.0 X11 fonts and then disabling them in the ATS Server before I have Java load them. This may screw up OOo 2.0 X11's font handling, but the way I see it, OOo 2.0 X11 is screwing up every native application's fonts to make it's work easier.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject:
I'm just taking a look into the OpenOffice.org 2.0 rc3 package to see how/if I can disable fondu at all. It appears to be run via an applescript in the Contents>Resources>Scripts folder, but as I'm no scripter, I don't know what to delete. I'm going to post in the OpenOffice.org thread about this release to ask if I can get them to at the least ask the end user if this function should be run... it is even converting fonts I don't have (or want to be) active... I think they should be aware of the potential issue this will cause. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:51 pm Post subject:
pluby wrote:
<snip>
To test this for yourself, close Neo/J and OOo, open Font Book and delete (not disable) the OpenSymbol and Bitstream fonts. Reboot. Open TextEdit and verify that those fonts are not in Font Book. Close Font Book and start Neo/J with the latest performance test patch. After Neo/J is fully open, open TextEdit and you will see that these fonts are available even though they only exist in Neo/J's share/fonts/truetype directory.
Patrick
I've just tried this and while the fonts that NeoOffice/J uses show up in TextEdit (OpenSymbol, Bitstream), those that were converted by Fondu for OpenOffice.org 2.0 rc3 (into its shared/fonts/truetype folder) do not (I've launched OOo2.0 and gone through the same motions and nothing is showing in TextEdit's font panel)... is there something about the use of these fonts under X11 that prevents the Font Panel/ATServer from detecting them? FWIW, they don't show up in NeoOffice/J either, and (unlike with 1.1.2) they don't seem to be having an impact on launch times either... I guess I am getting a little confused about all this _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
I've just tried this and while the fonts that NeoOffice/J uses show up in TextEdit (OpenSymbol, Bitstream), those that were converted by Fondu for OpenOffice.org 2.0 rc3 (into its shared/fonts/truetype folder) do not (I've launched OOo2.0 and gone through the same motions and nothing is showing in TextEdit's font panel)... is there something about the use of these fonts under X11 that prevents the Font Panel/ATServer from detecting them? FWIW, they don't show up in NeoOffice/J either, and (unlike with 1.1.2) they don't seem to be having an impact on launch times either... I guess I am getting a little confused about all this
If you have all of your native fonts enabled in Font Book, you shouldn't see any difference as all of the Fondu fonts will have duplicate names and, as a result, TextEdit, Neo/J and other applications will only show the first occurrence of a given font name. Where you would notice the problem is when you have many disabled fonts as those should show up.
But then, maybe the behavior is different on Tiger (you use Tiger, right?).
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:13 am Post subject:
Yes, I'm using Tiger (I post my comp's specs as my sig for a reason ). I guess that this must have changed with Tiger - I have over 1000 fonts installed but only a fraction of those enabled at any one time (less than a 100 at a rough guess). It appears that, although fondu has duplicated all 1000+ fonts, they aren't being activated in other apps if I launch OpenOffice.org 2.0 for X11.
I've had a go at this twice now, and the fondu converted fonts are not showing up in the Font panel in Text Edit, and nor are they having a big impact on NeoOffice/J's launch time or appearing in its font menu.
What is odd though, is that the NeoOffice/J fonts (OpenSymbol, etc) are showing up in Text Edit/Font Panel when I do the same thing.
Incidentally, I have also had a go at deleting all the converted fonts (from /Applications/OpenOffice.org 2.0/Contents/openoffice.org.2.0/shared/fonts/truetype) and so far, re-launching OpenOffice.org 2.0 hasn't led to them being re-converted. From the applescript in the OpenOffice.org 2.0 package it appears that this may be a bug, as it does look as though you would expect fondu to go through the whole conversion process again as it contains a few hints that this should happen e.g. "-- check footprint to see if font conversion was already run". _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
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