Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: simpler roadm ap?
We installed NeoOfficeJ/ 1.1 instead of OOo on our school Macs.
As I understand it, this NeoofficeJ uses java 1.3 but you are going to issue an update soon (next month??) building on OOo 1.5 and java 1.4. But OOo is up to 2.0 and java 1.5 and now is uses the "new and improved" odt file formats. We want to be able to provide the sstudents with tools that will allow them to avoid proprietary formats, but it sounds as if odt, at least from the perspective of NeoOffice, might as well be proprietary.... while I prefer pre 2.0 versions of OOo, time moves on.... and I am in a quandary as to whether to move to OOs 2.x or stick with NeoOffice, whch seems to have served us fine except with respect to importing equations (which is a disaster) and ths odt thing.... I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but if someonr could put together a small chart that shows NeoOffice, java and OOo version paths it might be easier for many to understand where neooffice is, where it is going and how quickly it might get there.... then folks would be able to make an intelligent choice as to which way to go based on functionality
OpenOffice.org 2.0 will support the .sx* type files that NeoOffice 1.1 generates.
The current release of 2.0 for the Mac is still a release canidate, which means it is not ready yet for full time use (unlike NeoOffice).
I understand your concern about 'proprietary' but the OpenOffice.org file formats are open source, so they are not locked in.
As for a road map (usual beatings if i am wrong)
Neo will move to Java 1.4 and OO.o 1.1.5 in the next alpha. As far as I know, there is no plan yet to go to 1.5, as right now it is an optional download, and not the kind of jump that 1.3 -> 1.4 was (at least mac side).
Work will progress for a bit (a few months, probably) to hammer away all the bugs with the release until NeoOffice 1.2 is official.
(Then I am gonna go buy patrick a beer)
After that, once OO.o 2.0 is stable, Neo will begin a transition to 2.0 code base, but not for a while.
Here is why you should stick with Neo. Neo provides a better integration with Mac OS X than OO.o X11 does. Between copy paste, printing, drag and drop, the list is very long of features Neo has that OO.o X11 does not, simply because it is an X11 program.
My opnion, as humble or not so as it may be, you would be spending more time teaching them how to use OO.oX11 then having them use it.
And as always, PDF and RTF are still unproprietary as well.
On a side note, someone release LATEX sorta equation stuff for Neo... I'll see if i can dig that up.
Neo will move to Java 1.4 and OO.o 1.1.5 in the next alpha. As far as I know, there is no plan yet to go to 1.5, as right now it is an optional download, and not the kind of jump that 1.3 -> 1.4 was (at least mac side).
In case it wasn't clear from jakeOSX's post, OOo 1.1.5 can import the new ODF file formats and it will save such imported files using the old .sx* format which OOo 2.0 handles easily. Since the next Neo release (Neo 1.2 Alpha is literally days away) will use OOo 1.1.5, reading ODF files will be available in Neo.
The current release of 2.0 for the Mac is still a release canidate, which means it is not ready yet for full time use (unlike NeoOffice).
What a complete bogus!
You don't seem to know what RC mean or do you and you only want to make us OOo guys look bad and hype up NeoOffice/J guys?
RC means that OOo 2.0 for Mac OS X has release quality once it passes the OOo QA! OOo 2.0 for Mac OS X uses the same code as the versions for Linux, Solaris and Windows do. So we have the same stability and the same bugs as those plattforms have.
What needs to be done is testing 2.0RC3 the official way and give it a QA passed. Once this is done the RC3 will be removed and 2.0RC3 will be called final.
Even with 2.0RC3 possibly beeing a 2.0 final there are some improvements to make. In mind comes improving the use of fondu in order to be able to use mac os x native fonts. Other improvements are locale detection code, UI language detection, support for send document as email and support for Java 1.4.x.
Most if not all of the above mentioned improvements will be in 2.0.1 for Mac OS X which we hope to get out with the 2.0.1 releases for the other major plattforms.
The current release of 2.0 for the Mac is still a release canidate, which means it is not ready yet for full time use (unlike NeoOffice).
What a complete bogus!
Nope, been doing this a lot longer than you have (apparently). RC stands for Release Candidate. That means that the program MAY have hidden bugs and/or problems that we have not been able to find. The path is if no problems are found, the release candidate will be sent out as a final release. If problems are found, the RC will remain RC and any problems found will be corrected and placed into a new RC. Since RC3 has not been renamed as a final, problems were found (and they were) and the folks at Sun have withheld renaming the RC to a Final.
mav_eric wrote:
You don't seem to know what RC mean or do you and you only want to make us OOo guys look bad and hype up NeoOffice/J guys?
I do and what JakeOSX states is true. The RC has remained an RC and there is NO stable (read Final) release of OpenOffice 2.0 for MacOSX X11.
mav_eric wrote:
RC means that OOo 2.0 for Mac OS X has release quality once it passes the OOo QA! OOo 2.0 for Mac OS X uses the same code as the versions for Linux, Solaris and Windows do. So we have the same stability and the same bugs as those plattforms have.
This does not mean that the release is stable or does not have major problems. I've been burned by a RC (can you say Windows95RC2?)
mav_eric wrote:
What needs to be done is testing 2.0RC3 the official way and give it a QA passed. Once this is done the RC3 will be removed and 2.0RC3 will be called final.
To quote the comedian David Spade "Saint happening". The MacOSX RC3 has too many quality problems and will not be released as a final. There may/may not be a RC4. That depends on the MacOSX porting team, not Hamburg RE (they are already working on 2.0.2 and have finished 2.0.1.
mav_eric wrote:
Even with 2.0RC3 possibly beeing a 2.0 final there are some improvements to make. In mind comes improving the use of fondu in order to be able to use mac os x native fonts. Other improvements are locale detection code, UI language detection, support for send document as email and support for Java 1.4.x.
This is moved to 2.0.2.
mav_eric wrote:
Most if not all of the above mentioned improvements will be in 2.0.1 for Mac OS X which we hope to get out with the 2.0.1 releases for the other major plattforms.
First there has to be a 2.0 Final. This is not happening right now. This means that the MacOSX porting team has to get it past QA. There are too many problems to get it there. Maybe instead of concentrating on adding features, the MacOSX porting team needs to work on getting a Final version of 2.0 out and past QA. Does this sound like a working plan to you and Eric Bachard? Hope so.
What needs to be done is testing 2.0RC3 the official way and give it a QA passed. Once this is done the RC3 will be removed and 2.0RC3 will be called final.
Given the number of people we had here with problems, I consider it highly unlikely that rc3 will pass QA tests. Please be careful when using the word hype.
And we both know that there are some mac-specific bugs that need to be worked out. I take it you read dev@porting? I know I do, and I think I can say with confidence that not everyone shares your optimism.
My apologies if this seems cynical, but I am trying to tell you never to sell the hide of the bear before it is killed. It creates a terrible impression of your trustworthiness and ability to deliver.
Keep it real, acknowledge your limitations, be helpful and civil and you will get nothing but love from us.
Oscar (who is tired, a bit irritated and really does want to do this) _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
What needs to be done is testing 2.0RC3 the official way and give it a QA passed. Once this is done the RC3 will be removed and 2.0RC3 will be called final.
Given the number of people we had here with problems, I consider it highly unlikely that rc3 will pass QA tests. Please be careful when using the word hype.
Did I use that word? If so, I should remove it. It has many unconfirmed usages.
ovvldc wrote:
And we both know that there are some mac-specific bugs that need to be worked out. I take it you read dev@porting? I know I do, and I think I can say with confidence that not everyone shares your optimism.
Mine or ericbachard's? I believe that most bugs can be worked out. This will take time.
ovvldc wrote:
My apologies if this seems cynical, but I am trying to tell you never to sell the hide of the bear before it is killed. It creates a terrible impression of your trustworthiness and ability to deliver.
Interesting analogy, but something that I believe. Don't announce something is done before you even start work on it. Many small projects died or never started because 'big industry' announced that they were working on a similar project. I would not announce a project is underway until I had a somewhat working prototype. I deal with this on a daily basis in my 'real' job.
ovvldc wrote:
Keep it real, acknowledge your limitations, be helpful and civil and you will get nothing but love from us.
I agree and add don't announce something until it is actually in progress with publically available information.
first, i am not a 'neooffice guy'. i am just a guy. i support openoffice.org on the macintosh in all of its forms, whether that be x11, neo, or even the old flamin' yeti builds. so please, don't try to pull me into a fued.
second, i do know what an Release Canidate is. My intent was to be factual about the release, not to put it down. If OO.oX11 2.0RC3 has acheived 'gold' status, I will advocate it as so. (as well as update the 'read me' and FAQ i have written)
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject: talk about starting a brawl!
so, to try and tease out some info from the discussion to date.
1) while NeoOffice is days away from an alpha with OOo core 1.5 that will accept odt files, it will still use java 1.4
2) OOo 2.x is at RC3 (and RC3 is certainly closer to actual release than alpha ) - I have not seen any font issues and am generally pleased except as to the underlying way OS X uses X11 (and I have posted about those issues elsewhere - they are not really OOo issues)
3) equation editor for both is a shambles - they do not import equations from MS products almost at all and can't even proper;y produce a sigma if creating the equation from scratch (and I have spent a considerable amount fo time reading how this has been fixed and if someone can in fact demonstrate how one inserts a sigma in a formula successfully in either product I would be greatly obliged....
4) While NeoOffice has an excellent point in its favor as far as being native to OS X.... being a unix guy I would have prefered less Apple patina, not more ;=} I realize that may be a bit of heresy. bt over and over again Apple has tweaked open software so it simply isn;t oepn anymore (their cups is an excellent example)
5) our folks are addicted to MS and in order to wean them I have to provide a bombproof product that will provide them the core features they need. Their needs are not exotic, but they do run to an equation editor and they will have to migrate whatever they have to something else, and that migration should be as painless as possible and should only be imposed once..... so I am going to wait until someone can point me to a way to have no issues inserting formulas or importing formulas from equations editor.... anyone interested in taking up this gauntlet ;=} I did note that there was a comment that there was some external product to help address this, but how comlex does one need to make this.... if its too complex one might as well stick with M$....
thanks for all the discussion - and I do hope someone can help with the equation bit....
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: talk about starting a brawl!
net-buoy wrote:
so, to try and tease out some info from the discussion to date.
1) while NeoOffice is days away from an alpha with OOo core 1.5 that will accept odt files, it will still use java 1.4
Java 1.4 is what Panther comes with and Panther is installed on quite a few machines. Java 1.5 work has just started for OpenOffice 2.0 and probably will not be available until 2.0.2 is released for Linux/Windows/Solaris. There is no final, yet, for MacOSX.
net-bouy wrote:
2) OOo 2.x is at RC3 (and RC3 is certainly closer to actual release than alpha ) - I have not seen any font issues and am generally pleased except as to the underlying way OS X uses X11 (and I have posted about those issues elsewhere - they are not really OOo issues)
Take a look at the size of the OpenOffice.app folder and you will see why some folks do not want to Fonduize every font on their system. The ability to pick and choose which fonts to work with is still a topic of discussion. I don't mind running Fondu to get my fonts converted and actually like that it is now built into OpenOffice, but I only use the stock fonts.
net-bouy wrote:
3) equation editor for both is a shambles - they do not import equations from MS products almost at all and can't even proper;y produce a sigma if creating the equation from scratch (and I have spent a considerable amount fo time reading how this has been fixed and if someone can in fact demonstrate how one inserts a sigma in a formula successfully in either product I would be greatly obliged....
Then this is an OpenOffice issue and not a NeoOffice issue. All Patrick and Ed have done is place a Carbon/Java based wrapper around OpenOffice to make it more like a MacIntosh native application. If OpenOffice cannot support what you are trying to do, NeoOffice likewise will not. It is time to voice your complaint to the OpenOffice folks to see if they can or will fix it.
net-bouy wrote:
4) While NeoOffice has an excellent point in its favor as far as being native to OS X.... being a unix guy I would have prefered less Apple patina, not more ;=} I realize that may be a bit of heresy. bt over and over again Apple has tweaked open software so it simply isn;t oepn anymore (their cups is an excellent example)
I'd hate to break it to you but CUPS is not open source either. It is a commercial product if you want all of the bells and wistles it is capable of. Apple actually fixed a couple of problems that CUPS displays and they made it easier (?) for users to add print devices. Also, MacOSX comes with the ability to natively print to PDF, something that CUPS on Linux does not.
net-bouy wrote:
5) our folks are addicted to MS and in order to wean them I have to provide a bombproof product that will provide them the core features they need. Their needs are not exotic, but they do run to an equation editor and they will have to migrate whatever they have to something else, and that migration should be as painless as possible and should only be imposed once..... so I am going to wait until someone can point me to a way to have no issues inserting formulas or importing formulas from equations editor.... anyone interested in taking up this gauntlet ;=} I did note that there was a comment that there was some external product to help address this, but how comlex does one need to make this.... if its too complex one might as well stick with M$....
Then for the present time, it may be in their best interest to stick with MS Office. Once the equation editor problems are fixed by the OpenOffice folks then you may consider either moving to OpenOffice or to NeoOffice depending on what your user's want (sadly, your opinions may not count at all.)
Bottom line: Go to the openoffice.org web site, create an account for yourself, and create an IssueZilla entry for the problem you have. Do not be surpized if they will not work on any OpenOffice 1.1.x issues, which is what NeoOffice is based on at the present time.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You cannot download files in this forum
