Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
Mox wrote:
Hi all,
Patrick, others: I noticed that NeoOffice defines some aqua-like colors for the basic UI. At least one version of this is in Neo Bugzilla Bug 692.
We at OpenOffice.org are currently implementing similar stuff for X11, although using a bit different approach. It's being worked on IZ 61174.
Is the colors in Neo bug 692 the latest that you use? Could OOo people have the permission to use the colors that you use in Neo?
I don't hard code colors. I use Java's standard APIs to fetch the native color settings.
As for permission, all NeoOffice sources are available under the GPL and GPL only. I have no intention of changing the license so if you want to lift any NeoOffice code, you must comply with the GPL.
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
pluby wrote:
I don't hard code colors. I use Java's standard APIs to fetch the native color settings.
As for permission, all NeoOffice sources are available under the GPL and GPL only. I have no intention of changing the license so if you want to lift any NeoOffice code, you must comply with the GPL.
I am sure there's something like that in cocoa which the OOo boys can use . _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
pluby wrote:
Mox wrote:
Hi all,
Is the colors in Neo bug 692 the latest that you use? Could OOo people have the permission to use the colors that you use in Neo?
I don't hard code colors. I use Java's standard APIs to fetch the native color settings.
And I think that you donated this code back to the OpenOffice.org folks. They chose at that time and still do, to not use that code (and it may be due to the GPL requirement.)
pluby wrote:
As for permission, all NeoOffice sources are available under the GPL and GPL only. I have no intention of changing the license so if you want to lift any NeoOffice code, you must comply with the GPL.
I had this argument with one of the OpenOffice.org folks. They are not going to change. Thus they are prohibited (by copywrite folks) from using your code unless they do, unless you gave this code specifically to them.
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
And I think that you donated this code back to the OpenOffice.org folks. They chose at that time and still do, to not use that code (and it may be due to the GPL requirement.)
I did not donate any of my vcl code. I only donated non-Java GUI code like the fix for the mounted file system locking bug, handling of Mac alias files, etc. But you are correct, they still have not integrated these two items.
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
pluby wrote:
I did not donate any of my vcl code. I only donated non-Java GUI code like the fix for the mounted file system locking bug, handling of Mac alias files, etc. But you are correct, they still have not integrated these two items.
Well, they did use quite a bit of the rest of the code you donated . But in any case, nothing stops them from implementing something similar. _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
ovvldc wrote:
pluby wrote:
I did not donate any of my vcl code. I only donated non-Java GUI code like the fix for the mounted file system locking bug, handling of Mac alias files, etc. But you are correct, they still have not integrated these two items.
Well, they did use quite a bit of the rest of the code you donated . But in any case, nothing stops them from implementing something similar.
I'm trying to encourage OOo people to integrate all the relevant stuff from Patrick's donation (like the Mac alias thing), but since that code is for OOo 1.1 and is not directly working on OOo 2.0, people have been reclutant to do the necessary adaptation work.
I guess OOo developers do not see the motivation to do that kind of "end user" stuff... starting an aqua port is so much more exciting :/
Patrick: So it seems you are strict about the GPL for all the vcl related stuff. But could there be some other non-vcl code that could be donated at some point? Especially something that you haven't yet ported to OOo 2.0? OOo cvs will not accept anything else than LGPL, unfortunately.
It would be nice if the current many OOo developers could help Neo by integrating as much (non-vcl) stuff as possible in the OOo cvs, so both projects could benefit from it. Then there would be less stuff that breaks with new OOo versions.
I can of course understand if you would first like to wait for the other donated code to get integrated first... Lot's of it will be in OOo 2.0.2. Plus fixes for --with-system -things (compile time, download size).
OOo has also helped Neo a lot by making an intel Mac port. And it might be worth investigating if Neo would be better based on the aqua port skeleton (that more or less compiles), than the X11 port....
Could there be a way where both of these projects could help each other, without sacrificing that what is the most important to each?
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
Mox wrote:
ovvldc wrote:
pluby wrote:
I did not donate any of my vcl code. I only donated non-Java GUI code like the fix for the mounted file system locking bug, handling of Mac alias files, etc. But you are correct, they still have not integrated these two items.
Well, they did use quite a bit of the rest of the code you donated . But in any case, nothing stops them from implementing something similar.
I'm trying to encourage OOo people to integrate all the relevant stuff from Patrick's donation (like the Mac alias thing), but since that code is for OOo 1.1 and is not directly working on OOo 2.0, people have been reclutant to do the necessary adaptation work.
Simple explanation for this. Most of the code was rewritten between OpenOffice 1.1.x and OpenOffice 2.0. Thus, some of the work was useless and some of it will require rework to fit into OpenOffice 2.0. However, there should not be any reason that the UTF-8 stuff could not be brought into OpenOffice.org 2.0, unless it is no longer needed do to the change to dlopen and dlclose.
Mox wrote:
I guess OOo developers do not see the motivation to do that kind of "end user" stuff... starting an aqua port is so much more exciting :/
Yes. Making an Aqua port is more exciting, but is is also necessary. Most Mac users do not like the funky X11 look. NeoOffice is still at the 1.1.5 level, but this can be fixed. NeoOffice 2.0 is being looked at with a base of OpenOffice 2.0.1.
Mox wrote:
Patrick: So it seems you are strict about the GPL for all the vcl related stuff. But could there be some other non-vcl code that could be donated at some point? Especially something that you haven't yet ported to OOo 2.0? OOo cvs will not accept anything else than LGPL, unfortunately.
All of the non-vcl and non-Neo code was donated back. I have it. The Child Work Space name is macxjoin1153. It works with the OpenOffice.org 1.1 code in Master Work Space m53. I've used the fixes to build the following (I no longer work on OpenOffice 1.1 code):
SRX645_m56
SRX645_m57
SRX645_m58
OpenOffice 1.1.5
NeoOffice with OpenOffice 1.1.5 as the baseline code (I'm the one who stuck a fork in Patrick to move to the 1.1.5 baseline and I'm actually glad that Patrick stuck the fork in me to get the build process running faster....)
Mox wrote:
It would be nice if the current many OOo developers could help Neo by integrating as much (non-vcl) stuff as possible in the OOo cvs, so both projects could benefit from it. Then there would be less stuff that breaks with new OOo versions.
Mox:
There are two people working on integrating Patrick's changes into OpenOffice 2.0 (most if not all of them integrated with 1.1.5 and this has been abandoned for the most part.) I feel that this effort should be restricted to the minimum necessary. The statement 'too many cooks spoil the broth' holds true for many things other than cooking.
Mox wrote:
I can of course understand if you would first like to wait for the other donated code to get integrated first... Lot's of it will be in OOo 2.0.2. Plus fixes for --with-system -things (compile time, download size).
OOo has also helped Neo a lot by making an intel Mac port. And it might be worth investigating if Neo would be better based on the aqua port skeleton (that more or less compiles), than the X11 port....
Could there be a way where both of these projects could help each other, without sacrificing that what is the most important to each?
Mox:
We all wish the latter. However, if this were a perfect world (tm), this would not be necessary. But there are personalities on both sides of the problem that will not give up what they have. Sadly, this has delayed the release of a pure Aqua project (one that does not have to rely on X11 code to build) and this may never happen. I for one beleive that one should lay aside, for the common good, programmer's egos and get the job done (I had this problem and after four years, I decided that I should leave and did.) Fortunately, Patrick is willing to go part way, but it appears the other side wants to charge ahead and now are experiencing the problems with the original Cocoa build (I just finished building m155 with the aquavcl01 code). I think they will either keep on charging ahead or realize that what Patrick and I said is very true and they will have to back out, regroup and take a different path (which is what NeoOffice did a long time ago.) By that time, NeoOffice will be well on to finishing a working build of OpenOffice.org 2.0.2 with an Aqua front end. And getting both groups to work together, nope. Saint happening at this time.
BTW, Mox, you and I are the only ones trying to resolve this problem.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
James: As nice as it is that you are actively commenting on every message here and at OOo, I think that in this case, my discussion is mainly with Patrick and Ed, not with the Middle Men.
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
Mox wrote:
I'm trying to encourage OOo people to integrate all the relevant stuff from Patrick's donation (like the Mac alias thing), but since that code is for OOo 1.1 and is not directly working on OOo 2.0, people have been reclutant to do the necessary adaptation work.
Simple explanation for this. Most of the code was rewritten between OpenOffice 1.1.x and OpenOffice 2.0. Thus, some of the work was useless and some of it will require rework to fit into OpenOffice 2.0. However, there should not be any reason that the UTF-8 stuff could not be brought into OpenOffice.org 2.0, unless it is no longer needed do to the change to dlopen and dlclose.
I know all you wrote already! And the UTF8 issue was a problem with OOo 2.0.1, but it may have been fixed since. (m154+)
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
.... lots of text...
Yes, I know all of this.
There may still be some relevant stuff missing from OOo m154+ builds that were donated in macjoin1153. I'm going to check it out as soon as I get my hands on a m154+ build from Pavel/EricB.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
Mox wrote:
James: As nice as it is that you are actively commenting on every message here and at OOo, I think that in this case, my discussion is mainly with Patrick and Ed, not with the Middle Men.
Ok, let me be blunt. I don't think that Patrick/Ed care about what is happening with OpenOffice right now.
Mox wrote:
I know all you wrote already! And the UTF8 issue was a problem with OOo 2.0.1, but it may have been fixed since. (m154+)
I think that it has been fixed too. Also, the issue with file locking is supposedly fixed with m156 (it was released today). However, I cannot test either of these, or I don't know how, because I am using American English, and it is not, usually, built on top of UTF-8 character codes. If I'm incorrect, then I am.
Mox wrote:
There may still be some relevant stuff missing from OOo m154+ builds that were donated in macjoin1153. I'm going to check it out as soon as I get my hands on a m154+ build from Pavel/EricB.
You can get a complete build including patches from Pavel. I do and am working on an upgrade of boost on m155.
I will state that the Aqua build does compile and you can use the svdem program to throw up a blank (and I do mean blank) Aqua window. It would be a good idea to go through all of Patrick's code in the CWS and see if there are any outstanding issues that can be resolved with the application of Patrick's code.
I picked an issue that I found and I decided to fix it. That is boost was throwing warnings because OpenOffice was using a three year old version of boost and spirit. I took the initiative and now my build is not posting those warnings. I may have to do more to get the build to work, but that will have to wait until the build is finished. I see that you picked your 'battle' and I wish you luck and if any of the code works and solves a few issues, the better.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
Ok, let me be blunt. I don't think that Patrick/Ed care about what is happening with OpenOffice right now.
This is very quite true. I've never been a big fan of X11 on Mac and now that OOo 2.0 is the third major OOo version with a Mac X11 release, the same user support issues are still there. I really stopped looking at the Mac X11 builds at least a year ago (trust me, Apple always throws some surprises into it compilers) and now I routinely use my Linux and Windows machines to compare functionality and design my code.
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
I will state that the Aqua build does compile and you can use the svdem program to throw up a blank (and I do mean blank) Aqua window. It would be a good idea to go through all of Patrick's code in the CWS and see if there are any outstanding issues that can be resolved with the application of Patrick's code.
I actually took a look at the Aqua code in the OOo tree a few weeks ago and, not surprisingly, it is mostly the same code that I and my Sun colleagues wrote back in late 2000 and early 2001 tweaked so that it will compile with the OOo 2.0 vcl headers. The code had serious problems back then which is one of the reasons I started from scratch with NeoOffice. Sure, I could have fixed the old Aqua code that we left in OOo, but Ed and Dan were already trying to do that with NeoOffice/C so I wrote NeoOffice(/J) instead.
BTW, my code will remain GPL. I have talked directly many times with Sun's executives (yes, even Jonathan Schwartz) and none have expressed any issue with NeoOffice's existance or use of GPL. As far as I can tell, NeoOffice fills a need for Sun's customers without any financial burden on Sun. I figure if Sun really wanted to produce a native Mac version themselves, they will contact me at that time. In the meantime, I assume that both Sun and I consider the current relationship to be OK.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
I think that it has been fixed too. Also, the issue with file locking is supposedly fixed with m156 (it was released today). However, I cannot test either of these, or I don't know how, because I am using American English, and it is not, usually, built on top of UTF-8 character codes. If I'm incorrect, then I am.
Sorry, but I just checked and the have not ported my fix. You will see my fix when you see tests for the "ENOTSUP" error code in sal/osl/unx.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: aqua UI colors for X11 from Neo?
pluby wrote:
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
I think that it has been fixed too. Also, the issue with file locking is supposedly fixed with m156 (it was released today). However, I cannot test either of these, or I don't know how, because I am using American English, and it is not, usually, built on top of UTF-8 character codes. If I'm incorrect, then I am.
Sorry, but I just checked and the have not ported my fix. You will see my fix when you see tests for the "ENOTSUP" error code in sal/osl/unx.
My apologies for the misleading information. At this point Mox may feel free to take on this issue and attempt to fix it. Since you gave the fix back to OpenOffice, use of your code should not be an issue. There was a fix for the NFS File Locking incorporated into the latest milestone (M156). Maybe this is to fix a different problem.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: Patrick's Opinion on OpenOffice
pluby wrote:
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
Ok, let me be blunt. I don't think that Patrick/Ed care about what is happening with OpenOffice right now.
This is very quite true. I've never been a big fan of X11 on Mac and now that OOo 2.0 is the third major OOo version with a Mac X11 release, the same user support issues are still there. I really stopped looking at the Mac X11 builds at least a year ago (trust me, Apple always throws some surprises into it compilers) and now I routinely use my Linux and Windows machines to compare functionality and design my code.
Unfortunately, I blew away my Linux load on the Thinkpad. Maybe I will get a more stable release and use that. I was working with Fedora, and I came to the realization that it was a pure beta, and no one should do production work with an Alpha/Beta code system.
pluby wrote:
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
I will state that the Aqua build does compile and you can use the svdem program to throw up a blank (and I do mean blank) Aqua window. It would be a good idea to go through all of Patrick's code in the CWS and see if there are any outstanding issues that can be resolved with the application of Patrick's code.
I actually took a look at the Aqua code in the OOo tree a few weeks ago and, not surprisingly, it is mostly the same code that I and my Sun colleagues wrote back in late 2000 and early 2001 tweaked so that it will compile with the OOo 2.0 vcl headers. The code had serious problems back then which is one of the reasons I started from scratch with NeoOffice. Sure, I could have fixed the old Aqua code that we left in OOo, but Ed and Dan were already trying to do that with NeoOffice/C so I wrote NeoOffice(/J) instead.
This is why I think that the Mac OS X Aqua project is doomed to repeat mistakes made in the past. Sadly, Dan is not working with the OpenOffice folks and I think that he attempted to impart knowledge to them that appears to have been largely ignored. I told Eric that his 'dream' of a pure Cocoa version was not obtainable and he basically told me to go away after becoming quite upset. My advice is second-hand but is based upon several technical articles which are available from Apple at the Developer Connection site (they recommend using Carbon instead.)
[quote="pluby]
BTW, my code will remain GPL. I have talked directly many times with Sun's executives (yes, even Jonathan Schwartz) and none have expressed any issue with NeoOffice's existance or use of GPL. As far as I can tell, NeoOffice fills a need for Sun's customers without any financial burden on Sun. I figure if Sun really wanted to produce a native Mac version themselves, they will contact me at that time. In the meantime, I assume that both Sun and I consider the current relationship to be OK.
[/quote]
As it should be. Your relationship with your former employer should remain at that level, if the both of you so wish. If Sun were to rehire you and tell you that they wanted a pure Cocoa version of OpenOffice.org, then things would change. Until that happens, your efforts should be concentrated on NeoOffice and moving it to the OpenOffice.org 2.0.1 code base as well as cleaning up any remaining problems in NeoOffice 1.2. I am working on moving OpenOffice.org (and subsequently NeoOffice 2.0) to boost 1.33.1/spirit 1.6.3 because of compiler warnings that appear to be bogus. Also, the boost code is over three years old and no longer maintained at the version level that OpenOffice.org is using. I may pass the changes to you so that you can verify them on Linux/Windows, if you desire.
In any case, your code is your code. If you do not wish to donate it back to Sun, that is YOUR option. Sun CANNOT force you to do so. However, if you found a problem in Sun's code, it would be politically correct to give the code back, and you did. The folks at OpenOffice decided not to use it, but I did. And it solved quite a few problems with my 1.1.5 builds. I just stopped working with 1.1.5 because I am concentrating on 2.0.2, Tiger and gcc 4.0.1.
At this time, I feel further discussion on what you should do with your code is not needed. However, what Mox does to improve OpenOffice.org 2.0 will be productive as he enhances the codebase. He may want to discuss his efforts and ask for assistance as his work progresses. I encourage him to do so, both here and in the Mac OS X OpenOffice porting mail list.
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