Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:31 am Post subject:
Awesome work Patrick!
A quick test run and everything appears OK with RTF and copy pasting from Preview. However, I don't seem to be able to do a paste of screenshots captured to the clipboard (i.e. command-control-shift-3, com-cont-shift-4, or com-cont-shift-4-spacebar). I would have thought that these were in .tiff format? Or are they .pdf?
Edit: A quick test of going the reverse way (NO/J to TextEdit) indicates a few problems. Tested using Geneva 10 pt font with some text emboldened, some italicised and some coloured (in NO/J) - when copied to TextEdit the emboldened and italicised states are lost. However, the colour text is copied but a colour background is not. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Copy and paste to and from TextEdit will likely have many problems. This is because TextEdit uses its own tweaked version of RTF whereas OOo implements Microsoft version of the RTF specification. These tweaks become very noticable when you create a document in TextEdit with Asian characters, save it, and then open it in NeoJ or OOo. Copy and paste the same data into NeoJ or OOo and you will get the same mangled text.
This is the problem with RTF: there are different concepts of what is "correct" RTF on Mac OS X. Since the underlying OOo code can only handle Microsoft's version of RTF, should I disable copy and paste of RTF or is the TextEdit incompatibles tolerable?
While debugging JKT's clipboard copy and paste problem, I found that the reason this didn't work is that my code was misconverting PICT data. This caused image copy and paste to not always work.
I fixed this misconversion and I have just uploaded "patch-5" which has these fixes.
I did some simple testing between Neo/J and MS Word 98 (running under classic) as well as Moz 1.6. Everything seemed to work well in both directions. I was able to copy formatted text including paragraphs with box borders as well as inline images.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:42 am Post subject:
Quick test of Patch 5:
1. Screenshots are working now as expected, thanks. However, I don't know if this is an OOo bug/feature or Neo/J bug - if you remove the highlight from the pasted graphic (by clicking a blank area of the Writer document), you can' t backspace delete the graphic - you must first highlight the graphic by clicking it and then backspace to delete it. (Edit: - just tried this with an Insert>Graphics>From File inserted graphic and it shows the same "un-deletable" behaviour so I guess it is an OOo issue?)
2. RTF to AppleWorks 6.2.9 - absolutely none of the formatting applied in NeoO/J was copied over and the fonts were converted to Helvetica (tested with Avant Garde Mono ITCTT font, 12 pt and then Courier, 12 pt - no difference).
RTF to TextEdit - Bizarrely the majority of the formatting was preserved this time! The Avant Garde font was converted to Times, but all formatting was preserved (with the exception of the colour background for the text). Courier remained Courier and all formatting was preserved (except background colour)
Note, though, that a graphic (screenshot) inserted into the Neo/J document wasn't copy/paste-able to either TextEdit or AppleWorks.
Wrt RTF - I think, even if it doesn't work 100% it is still worthwhile leaving it active, so long as a warning is supplied along with its use in the final version.
Edit - further testing of a few other fonts shows that the degree of format preserved in a copy from Neo/J to TextEdit is very much font dependent - note, however, in all cases background colour is lost:
Geneva, Charcoal and Chicago lose all formatting except colour and underline;
Arial, Gill Sans and Verdana retain all formatting.
A look in the Font panel in TextEdit indicates why - Geneva, etc don't have an Italic or Bold font family, so these formats are lost in the copy/paste (I assume Neo/J invents the bold/italic forms in these cases), whereas the other fonts do have those format families and therefore they retain them during the c/p.
Bizarrely, a second attempt with Avant Garde Mono ITCTT does lead to the same font being used in TextEdit and no conversion to Times occurred.
2nd Edit - I've worked this one out too! I have changed my default font for new Writer documents to Avant Garde Mono ITCTT. If I create a new document, type some text (which in Neo/J appears as Avant Garde as expected) then c/p that to TextEdit, it will appear in TE as Times! However, if I highlight that typed text, physically select Avant Garde from the font menu (although, it already is Avant Garde), and then c/p it to TE, it will appear correctly as Avant Garde text in TE. Obviously there is an issue here with using a non-default choice for your text format in Neo/J. (I hope that I explained that clearly enough to make sense?)
P.S. Patrick - I'm sometimes getting a blank Writer window after showing from hide, without any Calc documents open so this isn't the same as the results I was getting before. It isn't occurring 100% of the time so I haven't pinned down a pattern yet.
3rd Edit - an insterted com-cont-shift-3 screenshot in Neo/J, when highlighted, then copied/pasted to TextEdit causes TE to freeze indefinitely. However, a small com-cont-shift-4 screenshot in Neo/J can be copy/pasted into TE! _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Don't even try installing the patches against 0.7. You risk screwing up your 0.7 installation.
You need all of the changes in 0.7.1 for the patch to work. After all, the point of the patch is for testing new features, not for enhancing old releases.
Had a problem decompressing the patch using the usual CLI method, it complained that it couldn't recognise a gzip encoding. So I just opened it in Stuffit expander and copied over the files individualy.
NOTE: If you are doing this do not drag the whole expanded folder it will OVERWRITE MOST OF THE PROGRAM, drag and drop the files one by one. That goodness for broadband eh?
Joined: May 31, 2003 Posts: 219 Location: French Alps
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:50 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Edit - further testing of a few other fonts shows that the degree of format preserved in a copy from Neo/J to TextEdit is very much font dependent - note, however, in all cases background colour is lost:
I noticed times ago that TextEdit does not manage background of any kind.
I'm too busy to be a decent tester these days, I even have pain following the daily patch releases.
For most of these, 'the doc' refers to a very large (1.8 meg) word doc that had three different track changes additions on it, several sections, mulitple pictures, lots and lots of tables. Some of the things i saw may be OO.o problems, not Neo ones, but I wasn't sure, so I thought i'd bring them up anyway.
Paste from word, serif 12 to serif 10.
how do you register your name so track changes knows who you are?
Neo/J was taking 156 meg of “real†memory in my activity monitor. Is that correct? It was the most space, though Word usually pulled more processor (depending on the docs opened mostly).
Track changes worked, three users, Neo saw them all, new changes were made by fourth user.
Footer – pages numbers from word were not brought over (multiple 'sections' and multiple page number configurations) until much later in the document where after a later section, page numbers appeared as they should have.
noticed that as i typed this in Neo, a good portion of the suggested words were in ALL CAPS. (except when i type in all caps...)
picture copied from a Word doc, pasted smaller dimensions than it was in the Word doc. The smaller picture pasted back into Word was original dimensions. Resized picture in Neo/J and pasted into Word, again pasted in original dimensions.
I closed the Word doc and reopened it and Neo/J crashed. This report, which i wrote in Neo/J was recovered in full, however. (yay!)
And at the moment, i am not very happy with Panther, which seems to be eating my system resources up.
Copied a numbered list from Neo to Word, and it worked, but did not work from Word to Neo.
Copied a section of a web page displayed in Chimera, text in various formats, links and a picture. Neither the links nor the picture was pasted. However, a quick check in Word revealed that it was not pasted there either. (probably a Chimera thing then) From Trinity in Chimera there was formatting, however. (But no smilies, just the name of the picture gets pasted). I could not get links to paste as links though.
From Safari, formatting was transferred (though text was bigger in Neo than Safari, but I'd wager this has to do with Safari's rendering) and links were pasted as links (which when clicked opened Chimera). The picture was not transferred, but a space for it was.
Copy and paste from iTunes (track information) works.
Copying from PDF. From both Preview and Adobe Acrobat 6.0 behavior was identical in Neo and Word. Adobe had better formatting, Preview seems to forget carrige returns. Neither pasted pictures. The snapshot tool in Acrobat did paste a picture into Neo.
And I have run out of things to cut and paste from.
(Sorry, I know this post is long)
Patrick, I'd like to submit a bug, but I can't seem to get bugzilla to let me register. And it is only partially a Neo/J bug. The bug is an interopertablilty issue between OO.o/X11 and Neo/J (and in Neo FY as well). A document made in one program will not repaginate correctly in the other, but rather display as one page, where the side margins are only dictated by the width of the window.
That's all I have for now. Great work Patrick, anything I can do to help, let me know...
(does this mean a 0.75 release is soon? Perhaps 0.8?)
Some of you have been posting a lot of a results and, while I really like the thoroughness of everyone's testing, I am getting a bit overwhelmed by the detail.
So, maybe I can help everyone weed out real bugs from expected behavior.
1. Real bugs are crashes. Note that I found that NeoJ will crash soon after you paste an image into NeoJ. If you see this, I am already working on it.
2. Real bugs are when the wrong data (i.e. from an earlier copy operation) is pasted.
3. Expected bahavior is when font type, size, or style does not look the same in two different applications.
This last item needs an explanation. I sense from many comments that if you copy formatted text, the text should look exactly the same when it is pasted in another application. While this would be ideal, in reality this is not always the case.
The reason is that when you copy formatted text to the clipboard, the copying application posts the data in the format that it would use when saving a file. It does not know which application will paste the data.
In essence, the copied text is no different that text in a file This means that each application implements its own code for interpreting the formatted text that it pulls off the clipboard just as it has its own code for interpreting text that reads from a file.
RTF is similar to HTML in that, in theory, every browser would display the same web page exactly the same. This, of course, is not reality. Every browser has its own font matching and text layout logic.
So what text formatting can you expect to copy and paste with NeoJ? A simple test (although not a perfect test) is to save the file in RTF format that you are copying text from. Then, when you paste the text into another application, open the saved RTF file in the same application. Does the pasted text look the same or very similar to how the saved file looks in the same application? If so, then copy and paste is working correctly.
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