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NeoOffice :: View topic - New approach for "aquafied" OOo
New approach for "aquafied" OOo
 
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sardisson
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Joined: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 4588

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject:

ovvldc wrote:
pluby wrote:
Then, I am going to spend a few weeks working on inter-application drag-and-drop. A donor (who wishes to remain anonymous) has given a me a sizable donation to implement this feature.


Sweet! This anonymous donor can now consider his/her hands shaked and his/herself bowed to in deep gratitude.

May many more people follow this example Smile.


Indeed. Alf shukr to the kind soul...and I'm glad to see that Neo/J is getting some donations of a size large enough to allow Patrick/Ed to focus on some specific engineering tasks. I hope it continues Smile

(Too bad one can't similarly motivate Apple to fix the Java bugs in 1.4 on 10.2 and the memory usuage and the CoreGraphics EPS printing bug and all of the other Apple bugs/missing features that are in the way of an even better Neo/J....)

Smokey

P.S.
ovvldc (away) wrote:
(now that I'm an Oracle, I really should deal in metaphores more often)
I'm looking forward to the next great pithy saying from you, Oscar Very Happy
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"[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
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JimWG
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Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Rush Limbaugh NeoOffice Mention

Ed & Pat:

Before I head for the subway to work...

Just giving you a heads up; I've been related to by different sources (and I'm pretty sure it happened myself) that prior ear surgery a year ago, Rush Limbaugh pass-mentioned NeoOffice on his radio show along with some other "maverick" software he browses on his many Macs. If you don't know already, Rush is a hyper-rabid Mac fan/techie and mentions his Powerbooks and G5 (actually various models going back years) at least a few times each week on the air. No other celeb I know of even comes close to this at hawking Macs. Whatever the guy's politics, I'm sure he's moved more Mac sales among the tens of millions who listen to him daily than Apple would dare admit, and it's a bloody shame that Apple lets politics stand between them and market share (shameful, Steve!) by unacknowledging the man's Mac zeal, forget the man himself. I can't prove this, but since Rush is so well received in the South, it'd even be interesting to know whether it's been his good praises for Macs that's helped move Georgia to even just consider that 60,000 Powerbook school purchase in lieu Dell and Gateway's dominance in education.

I'll take a flying leap and shoot Limbaugh's staff a flyer about NeoOffice and see what happens.

James Greenidge
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sardisson
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Joined: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 4588

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:23 am    Post subject:

Well, this thread has now gone all over the place, but I am happy to see it was all a misunderstanding (but sorry to hear Eric was having trouble with PR and the de project, too).

For those who didn't see, Eric posted a good message on dev@porting today. I hope we can all really build on this and 1) prevent another outbreak of confusion and anger and 2) really rally and accelerate progress on Aqua.

mav_eric wrote:
I think we need a moderator that mediates between both developer communities but who could this be?


I nominate Oscar Very Happy He has established a reputation for calling ducks ducks wherever they are and otherwise being fairly levelheaded Smile

P.S. On a sadder note, I see Ed's VCL meta patch, which has been sitting around for two years now waiting for the OOo management to accept, has just been dropped from the 2.0 list Sad

Smokey

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JimWG
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Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject: Getting NeoOffice's Word Out

Nutshell update and offered recommendations;

Capsule introductions of NeoOffice have been/are being e-mailed to the science and technology editors of several computer publications and media such as Computer Chronicles and G4-TV, along with the project's requests for assistance and donations. Hopefully there'll be calls for interviews in the works. I hope to get on top of the Mac mags; it's outrageous they haven't granted a column on the NeoOffice effort but will spend pages chasing a sonic hedgehog.

Posting these capsules on university and corporate boards will be effect by next week. I do believe there are IT grads out there ready to get their hands dirty on some side real-world projects which are resume spicers.

I have two ideas ("gimmicks") in mind for generating publicity and funding, but regard these as off-the-wall final options for now.

Site Recommendation: personify this site a little more with a page profiling images and short bios (tech and family) of NeoOffice's developers to "humanize" this quasi-indepenent effort to surfers and potential contributers. A similar page featuring your opposite Mac OOo numbers would also effect a coming together of common goals, even if they don't contribute critiques or comments on this site. An on-board scrapbook of all media mentions of NeoOffice would also help (the OOo audio clip is a good example.)

Highly recommend grooming some NeoOffice core protégées in a row since that knowledge almost seems exclusive to Ed and Pat (as we all know the Prez and V.P. never travel in the same vehicle together...)

I hope to hook up with and re-kindle the fire of former members of Apple evangelist groups who might see in NeoOffice a maverick piece of professional software in the Mac's quiver. In my opinion, NeoOffice must not be abashed in posing itself as a rival to segments of the iWorks package since Apple might only give NeoOffice its blessings but not its endorsement (naturally). If anything, NeoOffice poses Apple another backdoor to lure people from Windows to the Mac beyond mini Macs by doing away with the excuse of being held hostage by MS Office and Word. Something Apple _should_ appreciate.

Right now Mac WordPerfect fans are still embracing a fine piece of long frozen software; "NeoWrite" within NeoOffice could pose a new home for them where their feedback regarding OOo Write can make a difference. I encourage all to invite this Mac software user base into the NeoOffice fold.

Another thing down the road is (maybe re-inviting the wheel) is to "re-write" the standing OOo users manual into a NeoOffice one in which NeoO users in spirit could call their own. Just a notion.

NeoOffice T-shirts and coffee mugs are a good promo effect (don't know how this effects your license), along with a contest for a (not a replacement) second logo. Why not a five or ten dollar fee for one to be an "official" NeoOffice User? (a formalized contributor of the team...).

Regards the Duck Factor. I hope in the near future that either NeoOffice and Mac OOo managers and powers that be would be willing to heed a Mac user plebiscite on the most favored flavor of a Mac OOo then throw their lot and efforts into a single project. Duplication is pointless. Egos worst. Let the users decide and get behind them!

Further updates as I go along...time to hit the sack.

James Greenidge
www.smallwonder.tv
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject:

I wrote a reply to this last night, but it some how got lost Sad.

sardisson wrote:
I hope we can all really build on this and 1) prevent another outbreak of confusion and anger and 2) really rally and accelerate progress on Aqua.

mav_eric wrote:
I think we need a moderator that mediates between both developer communities but who could this be?


I nominate Oscar Very Happy He has established a reputation for calling ducks ducks wherever they are and otherwise being fairly levelheaded Smile


Thanks, Smokey, I appreciate that. The whole thing reminds me of a quote by someone called Dave Platt: "Managing senior programmers is like herding cats."

But I grew up with cats, and I like a challenge. The moderator will need a vote of confidence from both communities and I do have a little bit of history. But what worries me about my nomination most is that I don't have any (recent) programming experience. That means in some cases, the developers will have to be patient with me and explain implementation details before I can help.

On the plus side, I will not suffer from programming frustration (though I really feel for poor Patrick with his security updates woes).

There will also need to be a mechanism through which a moderator can keep an eye on things and step in to smooth out egos and deal with FUD.

sardisson wrote:
P.S. On a sadder note, I see Ed's VCL meta patch, which has been sitting around for two years now waiting for the OOo management to accept, has just been dropped from the 2.0 list Sad


Hrmpf. It it possible to lobby on this? Or is 2.0 too far along on the release path to include architectural improvements? As far as I understand the patch, it would help both Neo/J and the X11 version (or at least any future other aquafication) and also benefit some other platforms..

I wonder who makes the calls on this, particularly when increased support for the Mac was announced in Germany. It seems somehow incoherent..

I suppose a moderator will also have to talk to the community management at Sun, and have the right developers talk to the right developers (reduces the chance of misunderstanding and indifference).

Best wishes,
Oscar

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"I think it would be a good idea!"
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ovvldc
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Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting NeoOffice's Word Out

JimWG wrote:
Capsule introductions of NeoOffice have been/are being e-mailed to the science and technology editors of several computer publications and media such as Computer Chronicles and G4-TV, along with the project's requests for assistance and donations. Hopefully there'll be calls for interviews in the works. I hope to get on top of the Mac mags; it's outrageous they haven't granted a column on the NeoOffice effort but will spend pages chasing a sonic hedgehog.


Thanks, James! Maybe one day we will have footage and be able to see what Ed and Patrick actually look, talk and walk like <G>..

JimWG wrote:
Regards the Duck Factor. I hope in the near future that either NeoOffice and Mac OOo managers and powers that be would be willing to heed a Mac user plebiscite on the most favored flavor of a Mac OOo then throw their lot and efforts into a single project. Duplication is pointless. Egos worst. Let the users decide and get behind them!


I felt inspired by your words and Smokey's kind endorsement so I jumped the gun and wrote to the dev@porting.openoffice.org mailing list. It is a long post, but I am basically asking to ignore the licensing problem, stop breaking OSX builds with fixes from other platforms and to work out a broad common engineering goal.

I hope it goes down well. I padded it with disclaimers as much as I could.

Best wishes,
Oscar

P.S. What is wrong with the submit button? I get keep getting a preview first, even if I don't want one..

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"I think it would be a good idea!"
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sardisson
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Joined: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 4588

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: Getting NeoOffice's Word Out

ovvldc wrote:
I hope it goes down well.

WOW.

Smokey

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JimWG
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Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:18 am    Post subject: Getting the Sun gods in line on-line

Oscar:

Good luck on your appointment!

Sounds like all you boys need one serious pow-wow. Okay, I'm wrong as an outsider by light-years, but it seems everyone on dev@porting appear just small fry flapping around in a puddle wishing and guessing and hoping to get things done without any top-down input. Feels like all those finely tuned minds over there are spinning wheels in place hunting for a finish line for when the flag goes down. It's time to stop being timid and e-mail the Sun gods a friendly 'we admire you' come hum with us invitation on-line and show you're soul-contributing employees, not drones in that big hive.

Most bosses appreciate requests (and honor pawing) from their underlings -- er, employees. It's a sign of employees being creatively feisty and gutsy and gung-ho and on their toes (as well as beholding). Myself, I'd highly recommend sending an _invitation_ to the honchos at Sun's marketing and product development or what have you over there - hell, Sun's prez I would! (NOT legal) to participate off-the-record in clear-speak in an IRQ or on-line room or open forum conference with you grass roots engineering crowd. Ask them to pick the time of their convenience (to the skittish; you can't fired for it because you'd a whopper of a unwarranted dismissal case!) Ask the honchos to go-anon or send a sub if they're shy. If you're declined an audience then that speaks volumes and the honcho would intuitively know that's not a good employee relations sign and only sets the stage for further disgruntles down the line which falls on their lap for not keeping in touch their people in the first place. Not good bossmanship. Make it a point that you all regard the honchos over Public Relations and Legal! You don't need any lame mouthpieces. You need the real thing to know you're alive and what's pipping. Cut off the honchos at the pass by telling them that you all understand that they can't make any promises or upstairs demands; you all just wanna keep the honcho informed and abreast of the underworld so he looks good while he/she lends you an ear.

I'd ask Sun honchos point-blank "Well, we all want to eventually make some bucks off all those Mac people! So what are Sun's hopes for the Mac market? You can't harvest what you don't sow, so how much is Sun willing to fertilize to reap a profit off the Mac market? What would you like to see happen in OOo and the Mac market? Do we (Sun) appreciate the freebie work (of Ed and Pat)? Boy, the Japanese sure know how to reward their mavericks! (innocently drop that nugget!) Are licenses hindering Sun's making a profit in the Mac market? Are they choking and crippling creativity? Here's what the grass roots believe... Can we shrink the Mac OOo timeline – how? Can YOU help (make it sound pleading) bring together the two Mac OOo camps for a cost-effective collaborate effort with appropriate compensation for off-site development? Can you suggest us on appointing a non-union liaison between management and the engineers and development? Are there regular informal (on-line) meetings set between reps of engineering and development and marketing? Can you recommend to us how to do this? Would you like a seat at these informal kick your feet up sessions? You know honcho, it's an intolerable -- and _unprofessional_ -- situation when group leaders or engineers can't speak their minds for the good of the company and potential markets without feeling that they're treading someone's ego minefield. I mean that sets us all back! You can't mill bucks that way! Can you give us any points on clearing the slate so we can maximize productivity with the least grated egos in road?..."

And so on. Of course I'm an outsider by light-years, but I hope these tried-and-true tactics win you all some points.

Gotta catch the subway.

James Greenidge
www.smallwonder.tv
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject:

James,

Rest assured that I have been in constant with many VPs and directors at Sun since I started the Neo/J project. There has always been good communication between me and Sun. However, we always have come down into one difference: Sun wants ownership and control of the Neo/J code to enhance the OOo brand name but Sun has been unwilling to provide any incentive for me to do so.

The only incentive they have given me are "you'll be part of the OOo community." That, for those who have worked with the OOo community, is no incentive and is, instead, a huge burden.

I have worked with OOo both as a Sun employee and as independent business and my experience is that OOo is very dysfunctional from a developer's perspective. In comparison, other open source organizations that I have been a contributor to (e.g. Apache Tomcat) have been an absolute joy to work within in comparison to OOo.

In sum, joining forces with the OOo community is a very, very low priority for me. There are no developers there and many obstacles to efficient development. This has been the case since I was an engineer at Sun back in 2000 and since all of the same players at Sun and Collab.net are running the day-to-day activities of OOo, it is a waste of my time trying to fix their problems.

Many of you may disagree with me, but I believe that Neo/J effects much more pressure on OOo remaining beyond the OOo community's direct control.

Patrick
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sardisson
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Posts: 4588

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting NeoOffice's Word Out

ovvldc wrote:
P.S. What is wrong with the submit button? I get keep getting a preview first, even if I don't want one..


I just saw that today for the first time (I usually preview first anyway)...I bet it was some of Ed's changes to keep out automated posters, perhaps gone arwy?

Smokey

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JimWG
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Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject:

pluby wrote:
James,

Rest assured that I have been in constant with many VPs and directors at Sun since I started the Neo/J project. There has always been good communication between me and Sun. However, we always have come down into one difference: Sun wants ownership and control of the Neo/J code to enhance the OOo brand name but Sun has been unwilling to provide any incentive for me to do so.


Thanks for elaborating on this, Patrick.

It's pretty sober news, to hear how intractable and unreasonable Sun is about this issue. I hope that, at least, the grass roots Mac OOo software engineers are more of one mind on your sentiments than the honchos are.

Alas, too bad OOo is too complex to emulate as a public domain "version", like I believe Compaq did with IBM's PC bios to get around the copy-write issue in creating the first IBM clone (I was an Amiga guy at the time, so all that's just hearsay to me).

All I can say now is good luck to Oscar!

James Greenidge
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting NeoOffice's Word Out

sardisson wrote:
ovvldc wrote:
P.S. What is wrong with the submit button? I get keep getting a preview first, even if I don't want one..


I just saw that today for the first time (I usually preview first anyway)...I bet it was some of Ed's changes to keep out automated posters, perhaps gone arwy?


If you get that "Preview" button instead of submit, wait another 30 seconds or so before submitting the page. If you type your post and you try to submit it too quickly, the stuff I added in will assume you're a bot and direct you to the "Preview" page instead. I've encountered it myself when I'm typing quick one-sentence replies or smilies Smile

The idea is that those quotebots, spambots, and such will just keep trying to resend at a high frequency and those bot posts will get discarded.

I'll work on trying to update it so it's only applied for anonymous users and not for registered users. Right now it's site-wide.

ed
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