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NeoOffice :: View topic - OO 2 on Mac - Won't run
OO 2 on Mac - Won't run
 
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cfrees
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: trying to install 2.0.0 also Reply with quote

I would like to make two comments in response to this thread.

First, I *am* an experience Mac OS X user, I have used OpenOffice for OS X in its X11 incarnation for a while, and am reasonably comfortable at the command line, though I am certainly not a developer. I found the install process for 2.0.0 confusing and quite non-standard. Much more confusing than, say, downloading a sourceball, compiling and installing the code (assuming the most straightforward case).

Here's what seems to have on my machine (G4 PowerBook 10.4.3):
- mounted disk image shows only one file. Either the readme is invisible, it isn't there, or something rather odd is happening. File is 300+ MB.
- drag file to applications directory and open...
... appears to briefly try to launch, but don't blink or you'll miss it ...
... retry ... grab menu before it can disappear and eventually get the message claiming this is a script saved as an application etc. etc.
- file is now 460 MB (??)
- examine package contents but don't learn much except that it appears to be a droplet and much more, but unclear how to launch it as a normal application
- doublecheck md5sum after checking listing on site, and remount disk image just to make sure nothing odd happened the first time

Knowing that 1.1.2 used StartOffice to launch from the Finder, I wonder if this would need something similar to do that, which it doesn't have. Launching X11 first, and then launching OpenOffice 2.0.0 does work.

I say this because I think that the responses from people who know how this works look extremely unfair. Sure, I figured it out, too. But I've used OpenOffice, other X11 applications etc. for ages. I've compiled software and, even, succeeded in hacking broken code to make it work. I routinely compile Pine from scratch because it is the only way a non-US/Canadian citizen can get a secure build legally. If I had to fiddle and guess to sort it out, I can only imagine how impossible it must seem to somebody who doesn't have my background in fiddling. I think it should have occurred to me to launch X11 first, but I've got used to the ease of OpenOffice and Gimp now starting from Finder, and out of the habit of worrying about window managers except when things go wrong.

You should give the new users a break. There *should* be a readme which tells users they need to start X11 first. It should, ideally, also tell them they need to install it (with a url to the documentation), and that they should drag OpenOffice to Applications. I'd also recommend explaining that this is not the stable build, and that 1.1.2 may be easier, since it does come with more documentation and can be launched from the Finder. Even source code comes with a readme (if it is even vaguely reasonable).

Second, NeoOfficeJ not only routinely crashes on my machine, it also brings down the entire operating system. If that's part of the Mac user experience, I'll still to unix fiddling, thank you.

I would not be putting these issues this way if it were not for the comments on this thread responding to new users. I would not express my concerns in this way to those trying to help those users, for example. But I strongly suggest that those telling new users to get lost if they don't like it check that the software meets at least minimum standards first - and I don't mean minimum "mac user" standards. I mean minimum beta standards, perhaps, though even alpha source code usually has a readme. If the file looks like a regular Mac OS X application, how do you expect people to know they need to launch X11 first, even if they do know they need X11 and everything is installed correctly, if you don't bother to say so? If it is on the website, I admit I missed it. I think that instruction should be included in the download. A readme saying "install and launch X11 before launching" and giving a reference to further documentation would not take more than about 30 seconds to add.

Do you want people to use this or not?

- CFR
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ovvldc
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Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: trying to install 2.0.0 also Reply with quote

cfrees wrote:
Second, NeoOfficeJ not only routinely crashes on my machine, it also brings down the entire operating system. If that's part of the Mac user experience, I'll still to unix fiddling, thank you.


Hmm, that surprises me. In my experience, Neo/J is rather stable..

Could you file a bug on this issue at http://bugzilla.neooffice.org/ and be a bit more specific about the circumstances in which is crashes and your system.

Please also note if you are using APE, if you Java 1.3 installation is in good shape, if you see similar crashes when Neo/J is not running and how long it has been since you installed OSX. I do not assume you have brought this on yourself, but we should not rule out anything here. [EDIT: also include any crash logs you may have, please.]

As for the OOo 2.0 problems, I leave this to other people.

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JKT
The Anomaly
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Joined: Sep 18, 2003
Posts: 434
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: trying to install 2.0.0 also Reply with quote

cfrees wrote:
I would like to make two comments in response to this thread.
<snip>
Do you want people to use this or not?

- CFR

All very good points. Alas, this is in effect the wrong place to be making them. Due to the dichotomy between the NeoOffice group and the OpenOffice.org in X11 group, we don't really have a say in the choices they make with their installer etc. These support forums for OpenOffice.org in X11 are being supplied as a courtesy (as NeoOffice/J is based upon the OpenOffice.org in X11 group's efforts, it makes sense that this support is here). You are absolutely right that there should be a read me with the app. I can't quite believe they haven't included one, but there we go.

I can answer your issues though:

1. FWIW, the Start OpenOffice.org app is essentially rolled into the OpenOffice.org 2.0 package (look at the Scripts folder within the package contents). The reason the app size swells on first launch is because a process called fondu is run. This copies and converts all your installed fonts into truetype fonts and places the copies in /Applications/OpenOffice.org 2.0/Contents/openoffice.org2.0/share/truetype

A similar process occurred with OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 in X11 (and I suspect that it could be a possible source of your crashes with NOJ... see below), except that the fonts were placed in plain view in the OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 folder as that didn't come as an OS X-like package.

Personally, I think that the choice by the OpenOffice.org 2.0 group to do this with no prompt or statement saying that it is going to happen is quite unacceptable. If you have a very large number of fonts installed, you suddenly find that a significant chunk of your hard disk space has disappeared, and apparently for no reason, simply by launching an app for the first time.

2. If NeoOffice/J is crashing constantly this is extremely unusual - although crashes can and do occur, to have them constantly is not a typical experience and for them to bring down the system too is very, very rare. Did you submit your crash logs and/or Kernal Panic logs to the NeoOffice/J bugzilla at all? If not, then do so. We can't help out if you don't do this.

However, things to try to see if they will stop the crashing:

a) It is possible that a preference has corrupted. Temporarily move your ~/Library/NeoOfficeJ-1.1 folder to the desktop, re-open NOJ and try again. This will reset the app to its default preferences. If the crashes stop happening after this, then something was likely corrupted in your old NOJ user folder (if you could, create a .zip archive of the "bad" user folder and attach it to a bugzilla report on your crashes and how you solved them). The easiest thing to do is trash the old user folder currently on your desktop and go through the process of setting your preferences again. Once set, I'd make a backup copy of the newly created user folder just in case you need to do something similar again - then you can simply replace the ~/Library/NeoOfficeJ-1.1 folder with a copy you know works.

If it doesn't help, you can simply move the old user folder back and overwrite the newly created one to restore all your old settings.

b) If you are using APE, add NeoOffice/J to the exclusion list and see if that helps.

c) Check your fonts - as you are running 10.4 you can do this using Font Book (/Applications/Font Book). Open FB and select all your fonts. From the File menu choose to Validate Fonts... and let the process run. Then scroll through the list to see if you have any corrupted fonts. If you have, disable them and see if that helps.

d) As you have been running OpenOffice.org 1.1.2, you presumably also have truetype fonts created by fondu in the OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 folder. Due to a change in the way OS X handles fonts in 10.3 upwards, if you use OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 in X11, all those TT fonts are apparently loaded into the font handling system (er, Patrick can describe this a lot better than me as he actually knows what he is talking about Wink ) - the long and short of it is that, if there are corrupt fonts within that set of TT fonts (and this is actually quite feasible as the fondu conversion process is not perfect) then these could be the source of your issues with NeoOffice/J! How you go about checking those fonts (as they won't be displayed in Font Book), I'll leave to you - perhaps temporarily move them to your user/Library/Fonts folder and then launch Font Book to perform the validation, then move them back. N.B. I would label the fonts you currently have there e.g. red so that you can distinguish the moved fonts with ease (use List view in the Finder, add the Label column and sort by label to get the labelled versus unlabelled into groups).

HTH

Btw, if I get the chance, I'll link to your post at the OpenOffice.org porting mailing list so that the OpenOffice.org X11 group get to see your complaints.

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yoxi
Cipher


Joined: Sep 07, 2004
Posts: 1799
Location: Dawlish, Devon

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to echo what yer man said about fonts causing crashing - after I installed OpenOffice.org 2.0, my copy of NeoOffice/J kept crashing and bringing down the system, but it turned out to be the big Asian script fonts that were the problem - seems that Fondu doesn't do a good job of converting these at all.

Anyway, all the crashing stopped after I went into the /Applications/OpenOffice.org 2.0/Contents/openoffice.org2.0/share/truetype folder, sorted the files by size and got rid of all the fonts bigger than just over 1Mb (which were all Asian script fonts that I never use). None of the fonts that were causing the crashes showed up as corrupted in any font checking apps I tried on them, incidentally.

I don't know if this is the cause of your crash, but it may be. Oh, and in any case, getting rid of these big fonts in OSX itself as well as in OOo2 will also speed up the launching of NeoOffice/J... never-used fonts still have to be accounted for in memory on launch.

- yoxi
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sardisson
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I moved my reply to "Ranting" because, on the whole, it seemed more appropriate there.

Smokey

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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sardisson wrote:
So, I moved my reply to "Ranting" because, on the whole, it seemed more appropriate there.


I made a new page at the NeoWiki X11 area to deal with all of this stuff.

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"I think it would be a good idea!"
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JKT
The Anomaly
(earlier version)


Joined: Sep 18, 2003
Posts: 434
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sardisson wrote:
So, I moved my reply to "Ranting" because, on the whole, it seemed more appropriate there.

Smokey

Ah, my response to your response has been shifted too... I'll put it in here as well. It appears that the blurb at Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com doesn't hammer home the necessity for X11 or provide any explanation as to how to use OpenOffice.org 2.0rc3 in X11, and presumably this is where a lot of people are getting their mitts on OpenOffice.org 2.0. The only mention of X11 is in the requirements and those are very easily overlooked by people (or they don't know what X11 is or means and figure they already have it when they don't).

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sardisson
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JKT wrote:
It appears that the blurb at Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com doesn't hammer home the necessity for X11 or provide any explanation as to how to use OpenOffice.org 2.0rc3 in X11, and presumably this is where a lot of people are getting their mitts on OpenOffice.org 2.0.

Ah, I wasn't aware that they had pushed RC3 to VT and MU. Presumably that still links to the Mac download page, though, rather than to one particular mirror (otherwise, what's the point of that page full of mirrors on the Mac download page, and, indeed of having a mirror network?)

Smokey

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JKT
The Anomaly
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, Versiontracker.com at the least points directly to the file for download (no idea if they cycle the mirrors somehow, or if it sticks to just the same one all the time)
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vicjoe
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: "Sorry, you can't access this file directly..." Reply with quote

Sorry, this isn't really a reply, but I'm putting my message here, as this is where I've encountered the problem of the pop-up/down menu at the bottom right that gives me the option to go to an OOo support forum and when I choose it and click "Go" I get the message "Sorry, you can't access this file directly..."

Well, I'm primarily a NeoOffice user anyway, but have run into a situation where I need to create Open Document files. Now the odd thing is, when I did the install of OpenOffice 2RC3, it does not run fondu and convert my Mac fonts. I even removed OOo 2 and reinstalled it, still no conversion happened. I obviously don't know why that is; there are 110 Mac fonts in my Tiger install, all user-accessible Asian fonts removed; they are not in the User directory but the one that makes them available to all users, which is the default place for added fonts as I understand it. They are a mix of OpenType from Apple, TrueType both Mac and Windows, and a fair number of Type 1 fonts. Does any of this look like it would stop Fondu from doing its thing?

I will say that when I first installed OOo 2, I booted into OS 9 and converted most of the fonts I wanted using Metamorphosis, to well, Unix/Win Type 1, but was subsequently disappointed with the results; it seems that OOo 2 doesn't read the AFM files well so doesn't always see e.g. the italic face in a family, and is hopeless in a family with a whole bunch of weights/styles, such as Minion. I also tried a bunch of Adobe Unix/Win fonts straight out of the box, no conversion (off a Type on Call CD, they have cryptic names like cobo____.pfb [for Courier Bold Oblique), same problems. Maybe I should have converted the fonts to Windows TrueType?

If some admin soul sees this message and wants to transfer it to the support forum and tell me how to get there, that'd be nice. OOo is faster and a little more comprehensive than NeoOffice, and like I said, I have reasons to create Open Doc files.

I hope you people don't mind my putting this message here in testing, as I can't seem to jump to the support forum.
Thanks,
Joe
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jakeOSX
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have tried several times to get info from the oo.o porting team on how exactly the fondu scripts in oo.o2.0RC3 work, but yet no such luck.

here is my current theory. if you have fondu installed, the app will run it and convert fonts you have. not so sure about that one yet.. =) but i'll let you know.

fondu will change the fonts so that oo.o can use them, i'd suggest just getting it and converting them. they do need to go in the .app file, if i remember correctly. i do not, however, remember where.

and i'd really like to add stuff about this to the FAQ and README, so if anyone can help...
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yoxi
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jakeOSX wrote:
fondu will change the fonts so that oo.o can use them, i'd suggest just getting it and converting them. they do need to go in the .app file, if i remember correctly. i do not, however, remember where.

/Applications/OpenOffice.org 2.0.app/Contents/openofficeorg2.0/share/fonts/truetype is where the OOo ttf fonts live.

- yoxi
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yoxi
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also just downloaded fondu, installed it, and ran it in terminal thus:
Code:
cd desktop/temp
fondu /Library/Fonts/*

and it put all the new ttf files in a temp folder I'd previously made on the desktop. Fondu won't convert the large, complex fonts that have CJK (or other multiple) character sets in them - i.e. those fonts that are bigger than around 1Mb on the mac.
I put these new ttf files in the folder I mentioned above, and OOo 2.0R3 uses them fine. I don't know if it's still the case that NeoOffice will take longer to load once these new font files are present on the hard drive.

- yoxi

Edit: Fondu also makes some files with extensions other than .ttf at runtime, which can be happily deleted before copying the rest into the OOo truetype folder.
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yoxi
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An update to all that - with Fondu already installed, I reinstalled OOo v2R3 from scratch. I started up X11 before launching OOo for the first time, and OOo ran Fondu and added all the ttf files to its truetype folder. It still leaves all the non-ttf files to be deleted, though - .bdf and .pdb are the ones that can happily be deleted.

- yoxi
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vicjoe
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: what about Type 1? Reply with quote

Quote:
with Fondu already installed, I reinstalled OOo v2R3 from scratch. I started up X11 before launching OOo for the first time, and OOo ran Fondu and added all the ttf files to its truetype folder. It still leaves all the non-ttf files to be deleted, though - .bdf and .pdb are the ones that can happily be deleted.

Well, all those .bdf and .pdb files are, it would appear, Fondu's attempt to convert Mac Type 1 fonts. They don't show up in the menu, nor does it appear they can be imported using spadmin (the printer utility that also contains the ability to install individual fonts).

I wouldn't be happy about turfing those files, though, as in my case they represent about half of my Mac font library, Type 1 fonts that I use and love. Can they be made to work? If not, it appears one has to go into a dedicated font conversion program with a front end, such as Fontographer (which has now been ported to OS X) and do the conversion from Mac Type 1 to Windows TrueType.

Say, here's an off topic question: here I am participating in a neooffice.org forum concerning an OpenOffice 2.0 port for Mac. I'm personally going a bit batty trying to decide what to use, NeoOffice, which sees all my Mac fonts but is slow and balky, or OpenOffice, which only imports my TrueType fonts and then with great difficulty but not my Type 1's, however saves in OpenDoc format and is faster in things like dropping down menus. Why are there two different developments? Why can't people putting in the work realize they have a common goal, to port OO to the Mac and combine efforts to produce one product that is the sum-total of the energies of all programmers doing Mac compatible porting?? There's probably a reason, but this splitting of effort seems to be duplicative and wasteful. Money? Ego? Lack of communication?
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