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NeoOffice :: View topic - OO 2 on Mac - Won't run
OO 2 on Mac - Won't run
 
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Re: what about Type 1? Reply with quote

vicjoe wrote:
Say, here's an off topic question: here I am participating in a neooffice.org forum concerning an OpenOffice 2.0 port for Mac. I'm personally going a bit batty trying to decide what to use, NeoOffice, which sees all my Mac fonts but is slow and balky, or OpenOffice, which only imports my TrueType fonts and then with great difficulty but not my Type 1's, however saves in OpenDoc format and is faster in things like dropping down menus. Why are there two different developments? Why can't people putting in the work realize they have a common goal, to port OO to the Mac and combine efforts to produce one product that is the sum-total of the energies of all programmers doing Mac compatible porting?? There's probably a reason, but this splitting of effort seems to be duplicative and wasteful. Money? Ego? Lack of communication?


Well, you can scout the forum for these discussion (start in ranting, which gives you an idea of how it is doing in the first place).

To make a long story short, there are differences in approach and practice between both teams and these are seriously compounded by bad communication.

The different development do actually take a different technical approach and do share some code and improvements so not all is lost. But there is a pretty acrimonious history.

There is little point in repeating all of the old arguments here, particularly since we are supposed to have a happy season.

Best wishes,
Oscar

_________________
"What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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jakeOSX
Ninja
Ninja


Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: what about Type 1? Reply with quote

vicjoe wrote:
Say, here's an off topic question: here I am participating in a neooffice.org forum concerning an OpenOffice 2.0 port for Mac. I'm personally going a bit batty trying to decide what to use, NeoOffice, which sees all my Mac fonts but is slow and balky, or OpenOffice, which only imports my TrueType fonts and then with great difficulty but not my Type 1's, however saves in OpenDoc format and is faster in things like dropping down menus. Why are there two different developments? Why can't people putting in the work realize they have a common goal, to port OO to the Mac and combine efforts to produce one product that is the sum-total of the energies of all programmers doing Mac compatible porting?? There's probably a reason, but this splitting of effort seems to be duplicative and wasteful. Money? Ego? Lack of communication?


sigh. can 'because' be an answer? =)

at first, neo was an experiement to change the X11 oo.o over to cocoa bindings. then with /j it removed x11 with java instead (and was MUCH MUCH more stable). both of these efforts, unlike oo.o, were GPL liscenced. this sight, set up by OPENSTEP, was originally for both the neo/c progect and as a place for mac specific support questions (that's why there is a oo.o x11 portion).

the fact is that there is two efforts. the first is porting openoffice.org to the mac. this is the X11 effort. the second is the neooffice effort, which then takes away the X11 dependancy, and adds a layer of mac-ness on top of it. (things like printing, copy paste, etc)

as for the politics, i'm not in that, so someone else would have to explain =) (though i bed looking about the forum you can find that).
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ericbachard
Pure-blooded Human


Joined: Sep 07, 2004
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericb->JakeOSX

> the first is porting openoffice.org to the mac. this is the X11
>effort.
Please note :
Official port of OpenOffice.org has started to work for an OpenOffice.org version without X11.

Current stable version uses X11, and works fine. Even on Mactel.

> the second is the neooffice effort, which then takes away the
>X11 dependancy, and adds a layer of mac-ness on top of it. >

So we do exactly the same thing. I have even proposed to work together, and it was refused.

For vicjoe : if you want to know more about the proposition I have made for a common project, and make you an objective opinion, please, have a look at :
http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2038&sid=6252d0fd435fdd1d5687426d0a100f9a

If my link is wrong, this is in " Ranting "
Topic : The great "invite" from our friends...


Regards,

Eric Bachard
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jjmckenzie51
The Anomaly


Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Southeastern Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericbachard wrote:
ericb->JakeOSX

> the first is porting openoffice.org to the mac. this is the X11
>effort.
Please note :
Official port of OpenOffice.org has started to work for an OpenOffice.org version without X11.

Current stable version uses X11, and works fine. Even on Mactel.


Thus no changes are required for assembler code? I think there is some there. Also, are you talking about 2.0.1 or some other release of OpenOffice? If there are no changes required for assembler code, this will make moving OpenOffice to the Mactel much easier.

James
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11853
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjmckenzie51 wrote:
Thus no changes are required for assembler code? I think there is some there. Also, are you talking about 2.0.1 or some other release of OpenOffice? If there are no changes required for assembler code, this will make moving OpenOffice to the Mactel much easier.


Or is a PowerPC build running on Mactel using Apple's Rosetta technology? The OOo PowerPC assembler should, in most cases, work if compiled on PowerPC and run with Rosetta. I vaguely remember Apple saying something about Java 1.4 not working with Rosetta, but I cannot remember the details so maybe this is not a problem either.

Edit: I found the article about Rosetta and Java here. Apparently, Apple says that the "Java VM must run natively; attempts by an application running under Rosetta to instantiate a JVM fail." I wonder what magical code Apple has in their JVM that prevents it running with Rosetta?

Patrick
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jjmckenzie51
The Anomaly


Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Southeastern Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
Thus no changes are required for assembler code? I think there is some there. Also, are you talking about 2.0.1 or some other release of OpenOffice? If there are no changes required for assembler code, this will make moving OpenOffice to the Mactel much easier.


Or is a PowerPC build running on Mactel using Apple's Rosetta technology? The OOo PowerPC assembler should, in most cases, work if compiled on PowerPC and run with Rosetta. I vaguely remember Apple saying something about Java 1.4 not working with Rosetta, but I cannot remember the details so maybe this is not a problem either.


In other words: Rosetta is a PPC emulator which will allow Intel based systems using MacOSX to run PPC code. I have one word for this: SLOW! Also, there may be issues, such as the JVM one. This would prove interesting and may be why the "Offical" OpenOffice team cannot get their project to run on Mactel with Rosetta.

As to your question: I don't think the problem is with Rosetta, I think it is a basic Java flaw as (if I remember correctly) VMware will not run Java applications in emulation mode either.

James
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11853
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjmckenzie51 wrote:
As to your question: I don't think the problem is with Rosetta, I think it is a basic Java flaw as (if I remember correctly) VMware will not run Java applications in emulation mode either.


It could also be the JVM's HotSpot compiler which generates native machine code on the fly. Maybe the HotSpot compiler does some tricks that Rosetta cannot handle.

Patrick
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ericbachard
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Joined: Sep 07, 2004
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericb->pluby

Sorry if I was not precise :

- 1.1.5 works without any problem on Mactel : install dictionnaries, fonts, everything works. To make short, all QA tests are ok. I prefer not say more, but it's not slow.

- 2.0.x are working well too (excepted Java part), but I found a forum where someone has made it work (some configuration tip I forgot since). Not investigated more.

To answer : yes, both are using Rosetta

For native (i386), OOo2.0.x now builds in one pass and is possible with and without X11. Mozilla packages (moz/zipped ) are built too.

An important point to fix is bridges, and you are right : we still have to work assembler part.
I currently just make the splashscreen appear with i386 build. OpenOffice.org crashes just after.

I guess you too have made some progress with bridges ?
(I don't see anything about that part on cvs repository ?)

Eric Bachard
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


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Posts: 11853
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericbachard wrote:
I guess you too have made some progress with bridges ?
(I don't see anything about that part on cvs repository ?)


No work has been done with bridges yet. In fact, everything that I have done is in the NeoOffice HEAD branch.

I don't have a Mactel machine at this time so I can't do any bridges or other Intel work. I'm hoping that I will be able to buy a Mactel when they first come out instead of paying Apple US$1500 to borrow a machine. In the meantime, I am only building on PowerPC and (very, very slowly) upgrading my NeoOffice custom code to match the OOo 2.0.1 code.

Patrick
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ericbachard
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Joined: Sep 07, 2004
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericb->pluby

Quote:
No work has been done with bridges yet.

I believed Ed Peterlin was working on bridges ? (using a Mactel)
Quote:
In fact, everything that I have done is in the NeoOffice HEAD branch.

Ok, thank you for the info
Quote:
I'm hoping that I will be able to buy a Mactel when they first come out instead of paying Apple US$1500 to borrow a machine.

Yes, such machines are quite expensive, and that's not really justified.

Eric Bachard
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jjmckenzie51
The Anomaly


Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Southeastern Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
jjmckenzie51 wrote:
As to your question: I don't think the problem is with Rosetta, I think it is a basic Java flaw as (if I remember correctly) VMware will not run Java applications in emulation mode either.


It could also be the JVM's HotSpot compiler which generates native machine code on the fly. Maybe the HotSpot compiler does some tricks that Rosetta cannot handle.


I agree with your assessment. It could be the HotSpot compiler getting confused as to which platform it is running on. I know that a JVM on VMWare would not work and should not be attempted as the results could be disasterous (think crashing a hard drive.)

James
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pluby
The Architect
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Posts: 11853
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericbachard wrote:
I believed Ed Peterlin was working on bridges ? (using a Mactel)


Not yet. I think that Ed has access to a Mactel machine, but AFAIK he has not tried building OOo on it yet.

Patrick
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericbachard wrote:
pluby wrote:
No work has been done with bridges yet.

I believed Ed Peterlin was working on bridges ? (using a Mactel)


Isn't it possible to loop the bridges/assembler code through the Rosetta recompiler and then use the results for now? Sure, it will not be optimal code, but at least you will have something to build and test the other parts of the software with, without resorting to Rosetta constantly. This way, the rest can be natively compiled and optimized for MacTel.

I know this is the crudest of temporary solutions, just trying to think with you guys.

Best wishes,
Oscar

_________________
"What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi


Last edited by ovvldc on Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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jjmckenzie51
The Anomaly


Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Southeastern Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovvldc wrote:
ericbachard wrote:
pluby wrote:
No work has been done with bridges yet.

I believed Ed Peterlin was working on bridges ? (using a Mactel)Eric Bachard


Isn't it possible to loop the bridges/assembler code through the Rosetta recompiler and then use the results for now?


Since assembler code is supposed to be operating system independent, it may be better to grab the Unix X86 code and use that with some sort of selector that is set by determining which operating platform you are running on. At least this should shorten development time.

Update: It is good practice to quote the author of a certain fact so that subsequent quotes can be properly attributed. This lead to a breakdown of the quote reversal system (and my manual application of it.) I have fixed the quote above and attributed it to Patrick.

James


Last edited by jjmckenzie51 on Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Rohan Moore
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Open Source Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Sorry folks, but I'm leaving you to carry on with OpenOffice and will return to MS Word, until you produce software which has one file only, called Install. Is that too much to asdk of you guys? I'm too busy to faff around like this.


Good plan. One broad purpose of "Open stuff" is to break the reliance upon the private sector by creating communities to mutually contribute to the development of solutions for each other's benefit. If you're too busy even to "faff around" -benefiting- from such communities' efforts, I guess the chance of you -contributing- is rather less than slim. I'm not sorry that your designs on being a virtual 'fat cat' have been dashed.
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