First the snarky comment, and then I promise to be constructive
I don't know where you found your link to the OOo2 download, but the sticky at the top of this forum and the OOo Mac download page that OOo2 on the Mac is still under development. The OOo Mac download page also indicates X11 is required....
That said, the documentation for OOo2 on that page is greatly inferior in amount and quality to the documentation that used to be up there when 1.1.2 was the only official build. When Ed and Terry were readying the 1.1.2 builds, there was a community here hammering on them; bugs were reported, bugs got fixed, and issues got documented. Waldo and I, among others, went several rounds with the documentation to try and make it cover as many issues as possible and to build on the info from the 1.0.3 release. Terry's Start OpenOffice.org was a pretty mature, well-tested app. OOo 1.1.2 was the fourth time Ed had done a major Mac OOo "release"
This is not 2004. Ed and Terry aren't doing the OOo2 builds, and the guys doing the official OOo2 builds don't come around here very often. There's not a community here hammering on the builds, though a number of regulars have done so testing of RC3 and earlier builds; bugs are getting reported, but not fixed. The "OOo2.app package" and its script are not mature; it's more "inspired by" than "based on" Start OpenOffice.org and misses out on most of the refinements and bug-fixes Terry was able to put into Start OpenOffice.org after many releases. It's incomplete and buggy, and, frankly, I decided I'd keep using Start OpenOffice.org.
There should be a readme, fondu should prompt you and be optional (and should delete the useless .bdf fonts instead of futher clogging up your disk), the droplet should be able to handle non-ASCII and non-Roman characters and prompt you about X11, but that's not the case (the app package/droplet does actually launch X11 for most of us, though).
I won't speak for the others, but I'm here offering help and suggestions to folks trying OOo2 in spite of the fact that the bug reports I file get ignored, that I'm persona non grata among some of the OOo2 Mac team, and that I'm powerless to help address/fix the problems that have been raised.
The only time I've ever experienced serious instability with Neo/J is after having run OOo2 (I really believe the fonts become an issue when they're inside an .app bundle, not just that they're fondu'd fonts. I ran 1.1.2 and Neo/J simultaneously last night--along with 10 other apps--and didn't have a single problem. I manually copied my 1.1.2 fondu'd fonts to 2.0, so the only difference is that one's just a folder and the other is part of an app bundle).
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:07 am Post subject:
Versiontracker and Macupdate don't list any detailed info on what is needed to get started in OpenOffice.org for the rc3 release (the only mention of X11 is in the product requirements and those are easily overlooked), and more than likely, this is where a significant proportion of people are getting their download from. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:31 am Post subject:
I'm beginning to suspect that we have a support headache approaching... I think all the positive OpenOffice.org press recently has probably inspired a lot of people to give it a try for the first time and the lack of info at Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com is going to cause us grief here
I e-mailed dev@porting.openoffice.org so hopefully a read me will be added to the downloads and to the Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com pages soon... _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
I'm beginning to suspect that we have a support headache approaching... I think all the positive OpenOffice.org press recently has probably inspired a lot of people to give it a try for the first time and the lack of info at Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com is going to cause us grief here
I e-mailed dev@porting.openoffice.org so hopefully a read me will be added to the downloads and to the Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com pages soon...
From your comments, it seems to me that you and Smokey are starting to understand why I don't "join up" with the OOo X11 team. I saw this problem coming months ago and when I privately warned Eric, Stefan, and Tino that support will be huge effort, they merely shrugged it off and effectively said, "we've got it covered."
In essence, the OOo X11 team likes to do builds. Fixing bugs and doing support isn't fun or sexy so they won't do it. I wouldn't expect this to change.
So, we have a choice. Either we can take over their support (which is what we are doing now) or we can push the support right back to them. As you can probably guess, I favor the latter as I hate rewarding other people's laziness. I don't favor the former because I believe that it will bury us and bury the NeoOffice project along with it. After all, how many "OOo X11 doesn't run" posts are you going to answer before some of you get burned out and stop looking at this site? Everyone has a natural limit to an overwhelming problem that they cannot solve and, in most cases, the natural response is to give up. All of your efforts to bridge the support gap that the OOo X11 team has left is admirable, but at what point is too much?
In light of the lack of the support (plus the recent vaporware announcements and other competitive posturing by the OOo X11 project), I would strongly recommend that we lock down the OOo X11 forums like we did for the Neo/C project and add a heading or sticky for those forums that refers users to the official OOo support site at http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/support.html.
In light of the lack of the support (plus the recent vaporware announcements and other competitive posturing by the OOo X11 project), I would strongly recommend that we lock down the OOo X11 forums like we did for the Neo/C project and add a heading or sticky for those forums that refers users to the official OOo support site at http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/support.html.
Well, I opened a page on the wiki for new issues. Putting that in a sticky and putting the common stuff there will at least give the poor volunteers some first aid / calamity relief. _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:21 am Post subject:
I would have to say, that no, that really isn't a good idea at all. Although it is a bit of a pain, we have to realise that having people use OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 or 2.0 on the Mac is ultimately of benefit to all of us because:
1. it means that the OpenOffice.org user base on the Mac is expanding, which ultimately is a very good thing (as it expands the knowledge base for support issues such as how to do things with the app rather than how to get the app working, and that will mean more people willing to offer user support here to),
2. I assume it means that, when it comes down to it, your work in porting OpenOffice.org 2.0 will be easier if the majority of the bugs with the X11 version have been ironed out first (you, of course, are in a far better position to know that than I am),
3. it allows us to expose NeoOffice/J as a better version to use for the vast majority of people to a greater number of users - at least these people are being told that there is an alternative (NeoOffice/J) which they may very well not have known about before (and I'm guessing that more potential users of NeoOffice/J is something you can appreciate? )!
4. just because there is a degree of bad blood between the two groups of developers doesn't mean that end-users should be exposed to it as it will just put them off using both OpenOffice.org AND NeoOffice/J.
Pointing people to the OpenOffice.org website for support is probably a sure fire way to get them giving up on the app completely - the layout of that site is decidedly unfriendly as hell and being Mac users, it is unlikely that they will get a high level of quality support about Mac specific issues.
Personally, I wish there was a way of reconciling the differences between the X11 group and yourselves... if differences in philosophy or personality clashes prevent that from happening, so be it, but ultimately I'm not spending my time here for my or your or the X11 group's benefit... I'm here to help get OpenOffice.org on the Mac in as good a form as is possible and to have as many people using it as possible because the "enemy" to me is Microsoft's philosophy and their proprietary formats that have stifled any true innovation in the office application space for the past decade or more. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
I saw this problem coming months ago and when I privately warned Eric, Stefan, and Tino that support will be huge effort, they merely shrugged it off and effectively said, "we've got it covered."
:roll eyes:
pluby wrote:
After all, how many "OOo X11 doesn't run" posts are you going to answer before some of you get burned out and stop looking at this site? Everyone has a natural limit to an overwhelming problem that they cannot solve and, in most cases, the natural response is to give up.
I already only answer those questions if there are no Neo/J queries that I can answer and I am feeling charitable.
pluby wrote:
In light of the lack of the support (plus the recent vaporware announcements and other competitive posturing by the OOo X11 project), I would strongly recommend that we lock down the OOo X11 forums like we did for the Neo/C project and add a heading or sticky for those forums that refers users to the official OOo support site at http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/support.html.
Thoughts?
Well, in one last gesture of goodwill , I'm in favor of someone saying to them nicely, "hey, either stop by here on a daily basis and field support queries, or we're going to close down the X11 forums because we can't staff all the questions and we aren't familiar enough with your builds" before we lock them down. There's only so much turning the other cheek in the spirit of greater community I'm willing to do, and I think I've reached that point.
Edit: I see JKT posted while I was formulating, and while I agree with practically all his points, the "expense" to Neo/J and our free time is, to me, not worth the hassle of the benefit of limited additonal exposure it gets Neo/J.
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
We should make a sticky in the X11 forums. It should say something like "oo.oX11 2.0 won't run!" or "read me!" (i'll work on this when i get back home)
in there we put the information, wiki links, how and where to submit bugs, basically we make a read-me.
then we just refer those questions there. when someone has an issue with oo.ox11, i have no problem helping (if i can), but if we are faced with the same ones over and over, we should have a set answer.
I would even go as far as to offer this text to be a 'read me' file in the bundle.
I am not sure that locking down the forums will help anyone in the end. I also have no issue answering oo.ox11 questions with a plug for neooffice at the end.
the title of this page "a bulletin board for the openoffice.org community on mac osx". i think we should keep with that.
2. I assume it means that, when it comes down to it, your work in porting OpenOffice.org 2.0 will be easier if the majority of the bugs with the X11 version have been ironed out first (you, of course, are in a far better position to know that than I am),
Sorry, I don't share your optimism. I donated patches to OOo six months ago that fix known OOo X11 bugs. I did this as a test to see if they really could actually process simple code changes. Let's just say that given that Eric et al. found these patches to be overwhelmingly complex is a good indication in my mind that we won't be seeing many fixes to OOo from them.
My opinion of Eric's coding skills is further reaffirmed by that fact that Tino (a Sun OOo engineer) looked at my donated patches a few weeks ago and, within only a couple of days, had reviewed the patches and had proposed modifications for them to fit within the OOo 2.0 codebase.
JKT wrote:
Pointing people to the OpenOffice.org website for support is probably a sure fire way to get them giving up on the app completely - the layout of that site is decidedly unfriendly as hell and being Mac users, it is unlikely that they will get a high level of quality support about Mac specific issues.
Will it? That may actually save a lot of people a lot of unnecessary pain. I'd have no problems with OOo X11 if they actually labeled their releases for what they are: very early alpha releases. However, they have been in a big rush to overstate the stability of their releases which is a recipe for pain for both users and support people.
JKT wrote:
Personally, I wish there was a way of reconciling the differences between the X11 group and yourselves... if differences in philosophy or personality clashes prevent that from happening, so be it, but ultimately I'm not spending my time here for my or your or the X11 group's benefit... I'm here to help get OpenOffice.org on the Mac in as good a form as is possible and to have as many people using it as possible because the "enemy" to me is Microsoft's philosophy and their proprietary formats that have stifled any true innovation in the office application space for the past decade or more.
And that is a noble goal. However, my opinion is that pushing untested and unstable software as a "release candidate" level of quality will untimately have the opposite effect and will chase users away. Pushing low quality products is a hard reputation to shed for any business even if they improve quality later.
From their release and support actions, it seems to me that the OOo X11 team's priority has to get the latest OOo code out as fast as possible without regard to quality. My approach is to get the best quality out even if it is not the latest, greatest code from OOo. These are two very different approaches and, since they are mutually exclusively given the limited number of volunteer OOo developers out there, I believe that these two approaches undermine the efforts of the other.
In other words, my belief is that if enough people decide OOo X11 is of junky quality, any future Neo/J release will end up inheriting that bad repuation as a result of its tie to OOo. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or money to sever the cord from OOo so if OOo X11 gets a widespread bad reputation, I wouldn't be surpised if Neo/J gets dragged down with it.
To sum up, I have been watching this OOo X11 train wreck slowly unfold and it isn't over yet. This is specifically why I am not doing upgrading Neo/J to the OOo 2.0 codebase: I want to stay as far away from their train wreck as I can. My hope is that once the dust settles in a year or so and if (as I suspect) there is no magical OOo Cocoa port and OOo X11 is still limping along with the same bugs, enough users will have forgotten their painful OOo X11 experience and I will be able to do a Neo 2.0 Alpha release that isn't too tainted my user's previous bad experiences.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject:
Ah well, I guess I'm just trying to remain optimistic about OpenOffice.org 2.0 and its development team (in other words, I haven't a scooby about what they are doing or how good they are) Now you've put it the way you have I can understand your frustrations and fears - hopefully they won't come true, so fingers crossed.
In the end, it is down to yourself and Ed, what you do with the forums but I personally do not mind answering the "dumb" questions when they occur here... but, I'm certainly in no hurry to rush over to support/dev@porting.openoffice.org to help out there. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:37 am Post subject: OOo X11 forums and support
jakeOSX wrote:
We should make a sticky in the X11 forums. It should say something like "oo.oX11 2.0 won't run!" or "read me!" (i'll work on this when i get back home)
in there we put the information, wiki links, how and where to submit bugs, basically we make a read-me.
then we just refer those questions there. when someone has an issue with oo.ox11, i have no problem helping (if i can), but if we are faced with the same ones over and over, we should have a set answer.
I would even go as far as to offer this text to be a 'read me' file in the bundle.
..
the title of this page "a bulletin board for the openoffice.org community on mac osx". i think we should keep with that.
IMHO... YMMV
I think a good first step would be the items suggested above:
1. X11 forum Stickies. Lots of the information is already in some posts there. (I'm a strong believer that one question is a problem, two questions shows a pattern, and write up the answers before the third question comes in.
2. Wiki
3. (strongly) refer folks to the above items
3.1 Maybe send this information to Versiontracker.com and Macupdate.com.
4. Those who can help X11 forums do so (time available)
5. go as far as to offer this text to be a 'read me' file in the OOo bundle. (I'm sure they will be soooo thankful
I found NeoOffice and have been happy that I did. I'm showing others OOo on Windows and LOVE NeoOffice on my Mac. It would be a shame if other folks did not have the chance to find NeoOffice as an option for the Mac. I will support your efforts as much as I can.
Finally
"Now you've put it the way you have I can understand your frustrations and fears - hopefully they won't come true, so fingers crossed."
In the end, it is down to Patrick and Ed, what you do with the forums.
Do the first steps soon and hope that the problems don't get so bad that the forums have to be closed. Maybe detailed Readme information will "reduce" the problem.
Some of the Linux guys "helping" the Mac team keep the port afloat have expressed similar concerns about quality, publicly (there was a thread on dev@porting about this last summer) and privately, too.
When 1.1.2/Mac was released, Ed posted the first build in late February (of an already-stable-on-tier1 1.1.x branch), and the final 1.1.2 GM was released in late June. We've tended to have 3-month testing cycles for milestone releases for Neo/J (and from OOo 1.1.2 Mac GM to Neo/J 1.1 Final, it was a total of a year).
I don't always agree with Patrick and Ed, but they've been doing this longer than anyone else, and in the year-and-three-quarters I've been around (yes, I'm a late-comer, but I didn't move from 9 to X until Sept 2003, although I did start using OOo/X11 shortly thereafter; it took me a while to hear about Neo and to find Trinity), they've consistently been proven right. I won't follow blindly, but I do trust their experience and what they say.
(I also recognize that the rest of y'all haven't been blacklisted yet, so our frustration levels aren't at the same place, and I respect that....)
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
and in the year-and-three-quarters I've been around (yes, I'm a late-comer, but I didn't move from 9 to X until Sept 2003, although I did start using OOo/X11 shortly thereafter; it took me a while to hear about Neo and to find Trinity)
has it really only been that long??
some reason I thought you were here as long as i have been...
probably because you have 1000 more posts than i do =D
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: Re: OOo X11 forums and support
LemonAid wrote:
Do the first steps soon and hope that the problems don't get so bad that the forums have to be closed. Maybe detailed Readme information will "reduce" the problem.
No offense, but your basically suggesting that we try to fill in for the OOo X11 teams failure to adequately test and support their release.
These are not obscure bugs or exotic user support questions. Instead, the problem is much deeper. Basically, the problem is that Eric et al. have advertised their release as stable and usable for all Mac users. Personally, that is complete bullsh*t. No only does it not have any real fixes for the Mac bugs that were in OOo 1.1.2, but they were in such a rush that they ignored the common fact that most users a) don't have X11 installed on their machine and b) don't have a clue what X11 is. The worst offense is that they have no support site.
In other words, the sticky should say something to the effect of "Having problems? Of course you are as this is very early alpha software that has not been well tested and is likely to have many bugs. We didn't release this software so don't complain to us that it doesn't work. Instead, complain to the people that released this at ...".
You may think this is harsh, but I put the first sentence on my test builds and patches and I work on the incoming bugs and questions full-time until the code is stable.
While Ed and I may decide not lock down the forums, if I keep seeing the "you people are idiots" type of posting from OOo X11 users, I will definitely push Ed to lock them. I find those type of comments deeply offensive. Sure, you may say that they are not related to Neo/J, but this is the Neo/J support site and it is only a matter of time before Ed and I have our names attached for the OOo support problems.
Think I'm being unrealistic? Well, it only took a few days for Eric's vaporware Cocoa port announcement to turn into "Sun is doing a Cocoa port" on nearly every newsite and blog that picked up that announcement.
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:31 am Post subject: Re: OOo X11 forums and support
pluby wrote:
While Ed and I may decide not lock down the forums, if I keep seeing the "you people are idiots" type of posting from OOo X11 users, I will definitely push Ed to lock them. I find those type of comments deeply offensive.
That's what prompted the rant that became this thread, although I ended up not addressing it head-on. The poster may not have realized it, but he was ranting at the wrong people, and the people who needed to hear the rant never will.
pluby wrote:
Sure, you may say that they are not related to Neo/J, but this is the Neo/J support site and it is only a matter of time before Ed and I have our names attached for the OOo support problems.
Especially given the fact that Ed did do the previous release and for a long time "the NeoOffice guys = the OpenOffice.org Mac guys" and vice versa in the understanding of certain circles (it *was* mostly true up through 1.1.2). All it takes is one person who still believes that's the case who then says something....
Smokey
still grumpy
(actually, more than grumpy...I'm going to go for a while) _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
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)!
Now you've put it the way you have I can understand your frustrations and fears - hopefully they won't come true, so fingers crossed.
