Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: OOo X11 forums and support
pluby wrote:
LemonAid wrote:
Do the first steps soon and hope that the problems don't get so bad that the forums have to be closed. Maybe detailed Readme information will "reduce" the problem.
1. In other words, the sticky should say something to the effect of "Having problems? Of course you are as this is very early alpha software that has not been well tested and is likely to have many bugs. We didn't release this software so don't complain to us that it doesn't work. Instead, complain to the people that released this at ...".
2. You may think this is harsh, but I put the first sentence on my test builds and patches and I work on the incoming bugs and questions full-time until the code is stable.
3. While Ed and I may decide not lock down the forums, if I keep seeing the "you people are idiots" type of posting from OOo X11 users, I will definitely push Ed to lock them. I find those type of comments deeply offensive. Sure, you may say that they are not related to Neo/J, but this is the Neo/J support site and it is only a matter of time before Ed and I have our names attached for the OOo support problems.
Patrick
Patrick (et al),
1. Yes, I probably would not use those exact words, but then I have not suffered the extreme frustrations that it sounds that you have.
2. Not harsh. You have been there, I'm only a outside visitor. I respect your efforts, skills, and dedication to this task. I have respect for your experience and decisions.
3. I agree. I finally read most of the X11 support items last night and was deeply upset by many of the "you people are idiots" statements. I GOT mad and I'm only a user and minor tester. fsck'em?
I would still combine the support answers and make a Sticky of them. I used some of the information to Install X11 and run Terry's Start program when I first found OOo. Then moved to NeoOffice/J because it was easier, Worked MUCH better and provided what I needed.
</rant>I have over 30 years of computer experience and when stuff like this does not work I don't blame the people who try to help! AND when I download emulation software like X11 to run something like OOo "I" understand that "I'm" taking the risk.</rant>
I can only offer my words of support and opinions. YOU are doing the heavy work. NeoOffice is exciting work and ... fun? to use.
Philip "My wife says to back away from the computer and no one will get hurt!" grumpy too!
i too was upset by some of the posts, mostly because i knew that the actual programmers on the x11 port will most likely not see them.
however, i still am working on the read-me. why? because i think it is a good idea.
I came here on a link from OO.o about the x11 version of 1.0.1 (no fancy installers in those days). Neo/C was still in development and Neo/J was version 0.0.1 (which i still have, btw). This was a strong community which was focused on OpenOffice.org on the Mac (in whatever form it took)
I do not think we will do anyone any favors by shutting off X11 support. If Patrick, Ed, and whoever wants to wash their hands and never read those forums, that is fine. But we should help if we can. I will help if I can.
I know there is a separation forming, an 'us' and 'them' between OO.oX11 and Neo. I know I can't help with that, I don't have any part of either, really. I am just some guy on the forum.
But if we hurt the end-user, then no one will be the better.
Patrick, Ed, I am on your side. Really. I understand what is going on, with the oo.ox11 builds, with the support issue. That is why I am writing the read-me. I think we have a good idea of what the main issues are, maybe we can cut this off at the head.
I do not think we will do anyone any favors by shutting off X11 support. If Patrick, Ed, and whoever wants to wash their hands and never read those forums, that is fine. But we should help if we can. I will help if I can.
I know there is a separation forming, an 'us' and 'them' between OO.oX11 and Neo. I know I can't help with that, I don't have any part of either, really. I am just some guy on the forum.
I think my intention got lost in the discussion. My intention is not prevent users from getting support. My intention is to redirect the flood of support back to where they belong: the OOo site.
For a very short time, users may find that support is lacking but if they start posting to the OOo user support mailing lists, it will be hard for the OOo X11 team (and Sun's maintainers of those lists) to ignore.
At that point, one of two things will probably happen. 1) the OOo X11 team will step up to the plate and do the support and/or 2) they will be a little more realistic in the stability level that they imply when releasing future builds.
Doing the README is helpful and I thank you for doing that. But, we should keep in mind that as long as they don't have to deal with the support issues, they will not have any motivation to provide their own support. In others, a little pain on their part may actually be better for users in the long run.
Well I found out where all of this support traffic is coming from. Note that the following URL (last updated by one of the OOo X11 team members) points nearly all support questions to trinity.neooffice.org:
Seems to me that the OOo X11 team decided to offload their support to us. Nifty.
Does that mean we can send the bill to Collabnet <G> ? _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
when ed ran the porting page on openoffice.org several of the links led back to trinity, so i am not sure that this is new... but someone correct me if i am wrong.
though i don't remember the trinity links being so promonent.
seems to me though, that if you are going to point to us for support you would hang out here too...
Seems to me that the OOo X11 team decided to offload their support to us. Nifty.
Does that mean that we are 'smarter' about their own product than they are? I think this also means that they are abandoning the X11 project in favor of the 'Cocoa' project. Of course we all know what that will do (or do we?)
In any case, we should endevor, as best we can, to provide the best quality support for those who choose to use the X11 version of OpenOffice for MacOSX.
In any case, we should endevor, as best we can, to provide the best quality support for those who choose to use the X11 version of OpenOffice for MacOSX.
You can do what you want, but let me be clear: I have no intention of cleaning up someone else's mess. That is the essence of this thread so far.
You can do what you want, but let me be clear: I have no intention of cleaning up someone else's mess. That is the essence of this thread so far.
Eric, you seem to be keeping up with Trinity somewhat. I would suppose you have an opinion on this matter and hopefully a constructive suggestion or two...
Parlez-vous s'il vous plait. _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:30 am Post subject:
jakeOSX wrote:
when ed ran the porting page on openoffice.org several of the links led back to trinity, so i am not sure that this is new... but someone correct me if i am wrong.
though i don't remember the trinity links being so promonent.
seems to me though, that if you are going to point to us for support you would hang out here too...
Initially I had put the trinity links for the FAQ and web forums on there a while back since that was the way that asxless, terry, myself, and others really could provide anonymous support. We had users asking support questions on the dev@porting list, and frequently the questions would be dupilcates, so we figured at full release we needed a way to both allow the support to be easily browsable/searchable as well as a way to direct it off of that dev@porting mailing list since they were getting all of the other developers on other platforms mad (but yet no one wanted to split the list into a separate Mac one...go figure).
The Web based forums are great since it lowers the barrier to entry for both people looking for support as well as people who want to provide support for other users. We had started out using ooodocs, but reliability and organizational issues just made reusing the server I was building for Neo easier. Thus the links to the forums here instead of the old ooodocs forums.
Since I no longer actively am providing day-to-day X11 support like I used to back in the early times (burned me out), I guess it's up to whomever wants to do that to decide the fashion in which they want to try to support end users.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:36 am Post subject:
FWIW, I've also made it clear that I don't have any intention of taking the OOo forum availability here away for the X11 users since I think it's useful for folks as it's one of the few informational resoruces that's dynamic
In any case, we should endevor, as best we can, to provide the best quality support for those who choose to use the X11 version of OpenOffice for MacOSX.
You can do what you want, but let me be clear: I have no intention of cleaning up someone else's mess. That is the essence of this thread so far.
Nor do I want you to. If you read through dev@porting, it does not involve only the X11 version of OpenOffice for MacOSX. If mav_eric and some of the other MacOSX porters keep on visiting (and staying friendly) then the forums are serving a good and useful purpose. If they don't visit and review them for ongoing issues, then they are next to useless (unless you have a generic question/comment or a problem that a non-porter can help you with.) I, for one, plan on helping those that I can, building and testing NeoOffice and testing OpenOffice 2.0 as this is what I feel is best. If you feel different, that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
Ed does not plan on removing the X11 forums anytime soon and the re-arrangment of the forums should minimize the erroneous postings. And lastly, I don't want to 'clean up' anyone else's messes either. I do enough of that elsewhere.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:38 pm Post subject:
OPENSTEP wrote:
<snip>... that asxless, ...<snip>
The Web based forums are great since it lowers the barrier to entry for both people looking for support as well as people who want to provide support for other users. We had started out using ooodocs, but reliability and organizational issues just made reusing the server I was building for Neo easier. Thus the links to the forums here instead of the old ooodocs forums.
<snip>
Incidentally, any idea what happened to asxless? I know he/she gave up on the OpenOffice.org project but he/she also stopped posting at MacNN as well at around the same time...
As for web based forums... phew, I'm glad these ones exist as trying to follow [dev] [porting] [Mac OS X] is an exercise in frustration... I have no idea how you post a direct response to someone there and there aren't any instructions on how to do so afaict.
FWIW, have you noticed that OOoDocs had been massively spammed by porno spammers in August (I think)... I thought the place had been resurrected after months of inactivity, but I guess not! _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
As for web based forums... phew, I'm glad these ones exist as trying to follow [dev] [porting] [Mac OS X] is an exercise in frustration... I have no idea how you post a direct response to someone there and there aren't any instructions on how to do so afaict.
You cannot directly respond to a posting in dev@porting. The list is moderated and I've seen where it took over 12 hours for a reply post to make it to the list (yes, I know how to read e-mail headers.) I actually stripped out the e-mail addresses of a few people in the list and cut--pasted together an original message to some of the MacOSX porters on the list.
JKT wrote:
FWIW, have you noticed that OOoDocs had been massively spammed by porno spammers in August (I think)... I thought the place had been resurrected after months of inactivity, but I guess not!
Looks like another site killed by spammers <sigh>. Luckily, Trinity has a good crew of folks watching over and they remove spam before it becomes unsightly.
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but then I have not suffered the extreme frustrations that it sounds that you have.
