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NeoOffice :: View topic - scrreenshots of neo2
scrreenshots of neo2
 
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: More on financing NeoOffice development

ben wrote:
NeoOffice Extras

I quite liked the idea of an optional pay-for download that had additional languages, clip art, fonts etc. You'd still get the core program for free, but interested users could get a few extra features. I know I'd be interested in a version that included the LaTeX integration that I know can be set up with ooolatex. It's been on my list of things to look into for a while now. If a replacement icon set is ever finished, this might also be a nice optional extra. I know I would like to contribute, but really have little interest in digging into OOo's code. Perhaps this is something that the rest of the NeoOffice community could work on without directly involving Patrick. We could put together the addons, and hand the finished product back to him for sale on the site.


Since a few people have now mentioned selling addition products and/or services, I need to make it clear how much involvement in NeoOffice I am willing to do. NeoOffice already consumes far more time and money than I would like and, therefore, I really have no desire to expand my scope and investment in NeoOffice. Also, selling other people's work as a product is not the type of liability that I seek.

My suggestion is if people really think selling additional products and/or services is a good idea, I would suggest that they do it themselves and donate some of the proceeds back to NeoOffice. In other words, if it is a worthwhile investment of your time and money, go for it. Otherwise, it certainly bet that sn't a worthwhile for me.

ben wrote:
Withholding binaries

...

I much prefer the idea of providing paid, early access to development and final versions, with slightly later finals for free. This accomplishes a few things: It limits testing of the buggier versions, thus relieving Patrick of some of the support burden. At the same time, it gives tangible benefits to subscribers by allowing early access to finals, and still allows a quality release to the general, non-paying public in a timely fashion. This also means that only well-tested bug-free versions would end out on cover CDs.


I agree with this. Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, I agree with it because early access to binaries is selling of a service, not a product.

ben wrote:
Business purchases

...

As for the “Enhanced Support” version that I suggested and that Patrick responded to, it's too bad that someone doesn't set up a business that could handle this. (Not that I'm volunteering...) I wonder, if you set the price appropriately, if it would be much of a support headache for Patrick et al. if what you were paying for was just a direct email to Patrick, Ed and other major NeoOffice contributors for fast bug questions and a chance to bend their ears. On the other hand, if you did set the price high enough for that, you might not get any takers.


I agree with this approach. Don't look for me to expand NeoOffice's scope. Instead, create your own NeoOffice add-on product and/or service site and donate or contract back back-line support to my company.

Patrick
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:10 pm    Post subject:

Well, as Patrick has mentioned, making Neo a full business is just not really economically feasible. I ran the numbers back in 2002-3 when I started /C and honestly, I couldn't afford to leave my job and perform development full-time. I recall that the only thing making my numbers break even was the "t-shirt" and "coffee mug" sales (wow, I am good at making BS pro formas I should've started an internet copmany in 1998).

While I agree that folk using the pre-release binaries are in fact doing testing, unfortunately the stability of Neo ever since Patrick started releasing it puts us in between a rock and a hard place. As Patrick will tel, even when we have something that's an "alpha" release, folks will download it and start using it as a full-quality product (granted, this is due to the quality of the alphas, but also due to the "i want the latest and greatest" mentality that even I have).

In theory it may be possible to set up automated build machines that can crank out weekly/biweekly binaries during our development process. We could offer folk access to these binaries for a fee (and I'd say our testers get free access too you know who you are Wink ). This is appealing to folk now and is what people seem to be asking for.

In terms of being a long-term revenue stream it's not a viable option. It's interesting people now because there is some active development work going on and people want to check it out even though we know it's not ready for primetime. After development slows down, however, there will be few changes and folk will no longer get the same benefit from access to a prerelease binary server and not subscribe. That type of subscription model isn't enough to form a business. In fact, it's really a losing proposition to start any business that'd be competing with both Microsft as well as Apple.

I still think donations are the way to go. It's enabled Patrick to work on Neo longer than he's wanted to and actually progress the foundation to the point where things like NWF are even possible, things I never could have done by myself and, frankly, no part-time volunteer staff. So if donations are the lifeline let's go to the mother of all donation services...PBS (yes, this is american centric, I apologize).

During all the fund drives for PBS there's not only the obvious guilt trip message ("funded by viewers like you!") but there's also the donation incentives. E.g. "if you donate $150 you can get a DVD of the show you're watching now...". We could offer access to the latest alpha binary at a certain level (free to testers again, of course), access to a biweekly binary at another level, and perhaps a CD at a higher level? I don't know the details, but I would suspect that donation gifts wouldn't actually involve a contract of sale.

Yes, it's gimmicky, and yes, it may be more expensive for users than buying MS Office. In the end, it really is the user's choice. I have no qualms about telling someone that MS Office v.X (2004, etc.) is a reasonable purchase. For the caliber of software you get for that price, it really is quite phenomenal. But the point of subscriptions, donations, or whatever isn't purchasing software. It's about a cause (e.g. free software) and not buying an office suite.

Are we making a difference? I like to think we are. Has something I've done made an impact on the world? I like to think I have. Yes, it may be valid to call my opinions self-serving since I haven't cured world hunger, given comfort to the aging, and all the other problems folk have had. I don't have the personal ability to make an impact on those fronts. What I can do is code. Things I've written and made possible have affected the lives of thousands (closing in on a million?) and have helped out folk like the Scouts. We've been able to create a fun community and place like here where folk can not only help each other but also socialize and have fun. Yes, it can't save the world, but it's definitely something that I think is worthwhile.

ed
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valterb
The Anomaly
(earlier version)


Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 463
Location: San Giuliano Terme, Pisa, Italy

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Hi Patrick,
sorry for the misunderstanding. What I want to say, and my poor english didn't help me, is that I think you could charge a small amount of money for each download. Even if a small amount of people will pay for it (let me say 1/100 of 1.8 million that download neooffice last year pay 5 or 10 $) it should be a reasonable amount of money (don't know how much money you get actually with the donation system).
I tried to be sarcastic when I say asking money for the download it's unfair, but maybe I didn't use the right way to express it.

Anyway, I'm just a user of neooffice, I like follow the development and this morning I did my second little donation.

Go ahed, and please accept my compliments for your great work

Valter
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject:

Someone raised Google Ads. Does anyone have a clue about the numbers that would entail?

I do agree with all of the Patrick's things about not moving to paid software. I also think delays are a possible way to go, but you still run into the problem that the most eager people (knowldgeable on computers and therefore potential testers) will be footing the bill.

Strange as this may sound, it would be much better if people who download more than two months *after* a release have to pay....

best wishes,
Oscar

_________________
"What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject:

ovvldc wrote:
Someone raised Google Ads. Does anyone have a clue about the numbers that would entail?


It's trivial. With 200,000 hits per month on the download page, it generates about $5 per day. The only people getting rich of Google ads is Google.

ovvldc wrote:
I do agree with all of the Patrick's things about not moving to paid software. I also think delays are a possible way to go, but you still run into the problem that the most eager people (knowldgeable on computers and therefore potential testers) will be footing the bill.


I don't really agree with your line of logic. In essence, you are saying that the testers will have to pay. No they won't, they have the choice to wait until it is free just like everybody else. Even you pay the early access fee and download it early, filing that bug two weeks early isn't going to result in a fixed binary for the free downloads. Instead, the bug you found may be included in an earlier patch than if you found it two weeks later. NeoOffice has always relied on testers to test *after* release, not before.

This will not change by charging for early access privileges. Let me be blunt here: most NeoOffice testers use NeoOffice on a daily basis so by downloading it early, they are getting some benefit of early access to the binaries. If you are looking for "I'm a tester so give it to me early and free", that is not going to happen. I will consider giving it free to at most a very small number of people, but those people would not be testers but people whom I see doing critical tasks that keep this site alive. In other words, people who are evaluating and closing bugs on a routine basis and who are managing a critical piece of the NeoOffice infrastructure.

This may sound overly restrictive, but I won't be surprised that after I first institute this policy, my mailbox will be overflowing with "please give me early access to the binary and I will be a tester" e-mails.

Let me repeat why we are discussing this stuff as people seem to keep veering the discussion back to thinly veiled "why can't it be free for me?" statements. We are discussing this because I am going broke running NeoOffice. If I cannot increase the revenues significantly, I'll pull the plug and get a job. It's that simple.

ovvldc wrote:
Strange as this may sound, it would be much better if people who download more than two months *after* a release have to pay....


This is exactly the problem with NeoOffice funding: everyone wants or hopes someone else will pay. The reason that I don't charge the later people is that, quite frankly, they don't require much support other than answering the same questions that we already know the answers to. In contrast, the early downloaders and testers file many times more bugs than the later users and each of these bugs needs time to evaluate before any fixing takes place. In other words, the first users are, in general, also require the most cost to support. Sure, the later users get some benefit from work provided to the first users, but the critical point is the first users are first in line for my limited support services and, therefore, they get the best support.

Patrick
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steveread
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject:

Someone raised the parallel to the pledge drives for public radio, where they keep nagging you until you contribute. Would it be possible to do something where every 30 days or so, the software asks you to register? (At that point, tell people that registration means they will be automatically notified of patches and updates, if that is not too much troubble. ) If you say yes, it takes you to a registration page which asks you to register, but which also asks you to contribute, say a minimum of $10 or $20. If you register, it stops nagging you every 30 days, but if you don't it periodically nags you. You wouldn't have to donate when you registered, but hopefully when faced with the opportunity to donate at least a small amount, most people would. Maybe you could also figure out some plea to put on the registration page to increase the likelihood that people would pay something.
Also, I agree with the individuals who have pointed out that it would help academic and business users if there was some way they could actually get a receipt or something which they could use to get reimbursed for donating. That way they could have their University or Business pay the cost of their donation, making it more likely they would contribute.
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FG
Blue Pill


Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Nice, France

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject:

Patrick,

Reading you, it seems to me that you spend a lot of time answering support requests… So, why don't charge, not for the software download, but for the support : the user can download whatever he wants whenever he does, but if he needs support, he has to pay a certain fee, or make a minimum donation of a certain amount, or have already given a donation of a certain minimum amount this year/half year… This way, you may earn more money, AND more time as well, as there would certainly be less support requests.

I may be wrong again : I was, in my previous (and first) post, your arguments convinced me…

FG
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject:

FG wrote:
Reading you, it seems to me that you spend a lot of time answering support requests… So, why don't charge, not for the software download, but for the support : the user can download whatever he wants whenever he does, but if he needs support, he has to pay a certain fee, or make a minimum donation of a certain amount, or have already given a donation of a certain minimum amount this year/half year… This way, you may earn more money, AND more time as well, as there would certainly be less support requests.


Didn't I already answer this question earlier in this topic?

Patrick
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject:

steveread wrote:
Also, I agree with the individuals who have pointed out that it would help academic and business users if there was some way they could actually get a receipt or something which they could use to get reimbursed for donating.


Doesn't PayPal provide a printable receipt when transferring funds? I thought I recalled seeing that when I use PP for ebay purchases.

Keep in mind, however, that we're not an organized 501 non profit org so legally if you're in the US you shouldn't be deducting donations to Planamesa on your 1040 schedule a Wink The reasons are multiple for why this is, not the least of which it's easier for everyone legally!

ed
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fabrizio venerandi
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:54 pm    Post subject:

What about give neooffice for free as now, asking for a donation, and put the forums and bugzilla as service for registered user only? You can use neooffice but you can not read the wiki documents, you can not have patch, you can not have support for bugs or suggestions about the use of neooffice.

If you want to enter to the great neooffice community you have to support giving 25$, and after you can use forums, read documentation, asking for bugs, have sex et ceterae et ceterae.



f.


(And, btw I hope people that are supporting neooffice from the beginning could have the 'registered user' stamp however. Actually I think I spend for neooffice around 150$, and I hope someone have a list of people giving founds for neooffice)
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Guest






PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject:

I am an academic, supplying our chair with software. Let me give you my persepective: While I personally think that donations are the way to go (and the solution I sympathize most with), I will never be able to convince my boss and the accounting department of our university to sign bills that are marked as volunteer donations. On the other hand, they have no problem spending hundreds of dollars for licenses for which OS replacements exists, just because it is "a proper bill" for "a proper product".

So I suggest to go dual: ask for donations, but also offer some officially looking service that allows me to spend a part of our budget on. It doesn't matter how this is called, it can be a fee for "access to binaries", "support fee", "universtiy chair license", or whatever, just have an officially looking bill (via pdf), that I can pay through a credit card (or via paypal or however).

Just my thoughts,
Sebastian
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guest
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: about money for free projects

Hi,

Why only send money to NeoOffice project, and not OpenOffice ?

Just curious :
- OpenOffice.org represents 98 to 99% of the code used to build NeoOffice,
- What is (are ?) NeoOffice project contribution(s) to OpenOffice code (2.0) , since august 2004) ?
- NeoOffice did nothing for Mac Intel port, e.g. fix the bridge ...
But I already read an Intel version will be provided

OpenOffice project does concern only volunteers, none is paid, and when a change is made into OpenOffice code, Neo can use it. The opposite is never true, because of the license...

Is it really fair ?
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doctype
Oracle


Joined: Dec 08, 2005
Posts: 291
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: about money for free projects

guest wrote:

Why only send money to NeoOffice project, and not OpenOffice ?

I think nobody said anything about not to contribute to OpenOffice. The problem here is, that NeoOffice is entirely developed by volunteers, and that the main developer depends entirely on donations so far.
guest wrote:
OpenOffice project does concern only volunteers, none is paid

Really? I read that some are paid by Sun or even are Sun developers. That may be wrong information ...

other guest wrote:

While I personally think that donations are the way to go (and the solution I sympathize most with), I will never be able to convince my boss and the accounting department of our university to sign bills that are marked as volunteer donations.

That's quite true in my case also (a German university): We can't even buy shareware, because the "software buying department" (Beschaffungsstelle) is not allowed (or simply doesn't want) to pay through credit card or PayPal and the like.
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jakeOSX
Ninja
Ninja


Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:40 am    Post subject:

and of course patrick and ed can beat me if i am wrong:

as for the neo/oo.o thing. for the most part, neooffice is built of the main tree of oo.o, not the mac porting branch. i am pretty sure that neo 1.2 was purely off of the main 1.1.5 tree and not off of the X11 efforts.

i am not so sure that none of the patches from the x11 2.0 port haven't made their way into neo 2.0, but even still, most of the code is from the main tree, which is funded by and supported by, sun.

while i am not against supporting oo.o, i am just pointing out that for the most part the efforts are indepent of each other.
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Eric Bachard
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: OpenOffice.org and money

Hi,

Interesting thread...

I do confirm : all contributors to Mac OS X port of OpenOffice.org are volunteers, none is paid. Of course some are working for Sun, but at office hours only.

And yes, this is true : OpenOffice.org Mac OS X porting project did all the work for 2.0 since .. maybe july 2004. All the work means fix builds, fix some bugs, etc..

Neo just uses the code, and applies little part of code. But Neo is not OpenOffice.org, this is a fork.

What could be interesting, would be only one project working for a native "Mac" application.

For the one not aware : Openoffice .org project is working on this, doing a native port (using Carbon/Cocoa first).

Last, why not help OpenOffice.org project ?
URL : http://contributing.openoffice.org/donate.html

--
Eric Bachard
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