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NeoOffice :: View topic - NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC Release Details
NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC Release Details
 
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jakeOSX
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Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, please pay attention

THE SOURCE CODE IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE AVAILIBLE
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pluby
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Joined: Jun 16, 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Trademark doesn't trump copyright Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
The FSF guys have been very clear about what happens when there's a conflict between the (L)GPL and any other restrictions. If you can't redistribute under the (L)GPL terms, then you can't redistribute at all, because nothing else gives you those rights.


Sorry, but you are confused about source and binaries. The NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha source is freely available under the GPL this very minute at no cost from our CVS repository. You can check it out, compile it, and redistribute it as long as you remove the NeoOffice word mark. The redistribution limitation only applies to binaries that have been built with the NeoOffice trademark.

Let me repeat, the GPL gives you no rights to a trademark, it only gives you rights to the source code. The code is freely available and contains no restrictions that are in conflict with the GPL. The GPL does not grant you license to trademarks which is why you cannot take, for example, RedHat's binary distribution and redistribute it even though it consists of GPL code. You can compile it yourself (i.e. the Fedora product) and redistribute your compilation without the RedHat word mark, but you cannot redistribute RedHat's binaries.

We are not covering new legal ground here. As I've mentioned, just about every large company (and even smaller open source ones like AbiWord) have already figured out where the line between the GPL ends and trademark law begins.

Regardless, the central point is that we are doing this because I am unwilling to go broke doing this project. If this approach does not generate any revenue, NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC would likely be the last release. So doing this approach really isn't an option: someone needs to pay the costs to run NeoOffice and donations have only been covering about 30% of the cost. The rest comes out of my wife's salary. Wink

Patrick
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pluby
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since there are many misconceptions about the GPL, here is a key paragraph within the GPL this is pertinent to the early access program:

"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things."

It explicitly allows charging for the service of distribution which is the key part of the early access program. Meanwhile, you can "receive the source code or can get it if you want it" merely by checking it out of our anonymous CVS server. And lastly, you are free modify or distribute copies of the source (and any binaries that you build) as long as you don't use the NeoOffice trademark.

The GPL goes on in more detail about this, but generally the GPL talks about source code, not pre-built binaries. Also, note that the GPL explicitly talks about freedom to access, modify, and change the source code, not access to binaries free of charge.

Patrick
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jakeOSX
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

p.s. the binaries will still be availible for free later. =D

cue tomahawk
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: What the GPL says about binaries Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
The GPL goes on in more detail about this, but generally the GPL talks about source code, not pre-built binaries. Also, note that the GPL explicitly talks about freedom to access, modify, and change the source code, not access to binaries free of charge.

While the GPL generally talks about source code, it also talks specifically about binaries. It says in Section 3
FSF wrote:
You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also ....
where Section 2b says
FSF wrote:
You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.

Again, I'm not saying you don't deserve money for the work you're doing (I've made a donation). I just think that prohibiting redistribution of the binaries appears to be a violation of the license, and that won't win friends.
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pluby
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: What the GPL says about binaries Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
pluby wrote:
The GPL goes on in more detail about this, but generally the GPL talks about source code, not pre-built binaries. Also, note that the GPL explicitly talks about freedom to access, modify, and change the source code, not access to binaries free of charge.

While the GPL generally talks about source code, it also talks specifically about binaries. It says in Section 3
FSF wrote:
You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also ....
where Section 2b says
FSF wrote:
You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.

Again, I'm not saying you don't deserve money for the work you're doing (I've made a donation). I just think that prohibiting redistribution of the binaries appears to be a violation of the license, and that won't win friends.


Wow a lot of searching on the web regarding these particular clauses of the GPL and I must say this is a hotly discussed topic. Even if my lawyer wrote an opinion that said my approach is OK per the GPL, I am convinced that using my approach would probably cause a series of flamewars.

Clearly, I need to avoid the redistribution limitation if at all possible. At the same time, I really don't want a large company (yes, like yours) paying only $25, installing the early access on several computers, and then those users flooding our support forums. $25 just doesn't handle the support load.

Any ideas on how to word a license that doesn't have any dependency on the GPL but, at the same time, strongly encourages people to keep redistribution in check?

I don't think I need a legal restriction, public pressure (or embarrassment) works as well. Since the real value of purchasing an early access membership is that you get better support since there are few users who have the software, I'd like to reduce the abuse of this very limited (and costly) service. Large organizations are in the best position to support the NeoOffice project but are also, the least likely to contribute back some of the costs.

Edit: One example of a public pressure/embarrassment measure is to post a list of the domain names with the highest ratio of installs versus early access memberships. This makes a company that does 1,000 installs from one membership purchase look very cheap. Of course, there aren't any damages that I can collect, but I can always send a nice donation request letter to their CEO with the figures to encourage them to "share their savings". I can also add this list to the early access welcome page that pops up at the end of the early access install to encourage future users in such domains to purchase an early access membership.

Patrick
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LemonAid
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick,

How about words to the effect that this is a LIMITED Alpha test, By SUBSCRIPTION / Invitation only, and will NOT be able to support large User Sites - and such?

Philip (still emailing EricH, Pavel, Louis, OOo. EricB next? Evil or Very Mad )
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pluby
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After more research, I have starting to agree with the recent Guest poster's analysis. Restricting use of the NeoOffice trademark if you compile your copy and try to redistribute. However, once we put out a binary, preventing redistribution of the binary is not a clearcut legal argument.

So, I won't try to claim that you cannot redistribute the NeoOffice early access binary. Instead, I will just encourage people to not redistribute it on the early access info page as well as on the welcome page that opens at the end of installation.

If I notice that one or a few companies have a super high installation-to-membership ratio, I can add a "cheapskate" list of companies to the early access page as well as a list of "super supporters" list of companies who buy lots of memberships. Companies really hate this kind of bad publicity and since the planamesa.com download page gets 200K of hits each month, that is a lot of eyes.

Hopefully, most people will be honest and will realize that redistributing will cause more long-term harm to the project than good. We can always try something different for the next release, but since I'm already put in the time and spent the donations that people have given to create Neo 2.0 Alpha, I might as well get it out the door and see what happens.

Patrick
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pluby
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI. I've remove the early access redistribution restriction from the NeoWiki's Trademark Usage Guidelines. I've also remove the same text from the Neo 2.0 Alpha code's ReadMe.rtf in the CVS repository and I will respin my Neo 2.0 Alpha binaries tomorrow.

My first cut of the early access page is almost down (I have some rewording to do to remove the redistribution restriction that I wrote earlier). I'll post here when the pages are up on planamesa.com.

Patrick
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OPENSTEP
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Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to note, however, is that the GPL does clearly allow for restricted access to source code for a fee. Patrick and I have chosen to not go down this route, regardless.

The source has been, is, and will always be free. If the CVS server has to go offline, the source is still always with every individual binary dimage that gets produced by our build system...if you get the binary (via our dimage), you get the source and can always follow the README, type "make", and roll your own.

The goal here isn't to BF anyone. Really, it's to find a way that we can still have a fulltime developer working on the project. I can't afford to do NWF full time myself, so that's why it has to wait until beta at least. Perhaps a quad G5 could speed me up...

ed
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pluby
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI. I finished drafting the most critical NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC Early Access Program details and added a link to it on both http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/ and http://www.neooffice.org/.

Feel free to link to these pages. Between now and 25 April, I will be adding the features page, etc. for the NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC release.

Patrick
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calmansi
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Joined: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:39 am    Post subject: What does "Alpha" mean, please? Reply with quote

Thank you so much for all your work!

But sorry, I have yet another dumb question: the NeoOffice I am presently using is version 1.2 - is this the same as 1.2 Alpha? In other words, can I just download the update patch, or should I download the whole 1.2.2 version?

Best,

Claude
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jakeOSX
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you are using 1.2, you should download the patch for 1.2.2, as it has bug fixes in it. Neo 1.2 uses OpenOffice.org 1.1.5 as its basis.

Neo 2.0, however, will use OpenOffice.org 2.0 as its basis. Alpha means that this is still new software, and still needs to be tested (think of a prototype in an engineering sense).

hope that helps.

-j
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calmansi
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the quick answer: yes, it does help.
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sardisson
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
FYI. I finished drafting the most critical NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC Early Access Program details and added a link to it on both http://www.planamesa.com/neojava/ and http://www.neooffice.org/.

There's a missing "ends" in the sentence right below where the button goes: "Since we sell program memberships to raise funds for the NeoOffice project, we ask that you limit redistribution of any downloaded files until after the NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC Early Access Program ends on 23 May 2006."

Also, depending on the width of your browser window (the narrower, the fewer issues), the screenshot overlaps the pricing Embarassed

I wonder if MU and VT will claim that NeoOffice 2.0 Alpha PowerPC is released already, or on April 25, instead of on May 23 Sad

Smokey

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"[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
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