Joined: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 291 Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject:
OPENSTEP wrote:
Our present thoughts are leaning towards technical talk (after all, we're developers) and going into various aspects of our design including NMF, NWF, the Java perspective, et. al. Any suggestions?
Remember : they just check 1GB of code, and apply 10 to 15MB (max) of bindings (using supplementary 250MB or RAM in runtime) But respecting Licenses changes of name ..etc, NeoOffice is stricto sensu not OpenOffice.org.
Just check the wonderous megalith that is OOo's 1GB of source code and then apply your own insignificant little 15MB. Well if it's that easy why doesn't Eric get his head out his ass and reproduce it next weekend so we can all have official Aqua OOo by Monday
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: The big LIE....
It's funny, in a sad and morbid sort of way, how far he's gone to take offense at any mention of the N word.
I got some bugmail from IssueZilla the other day (completely blank, and, as it turns out, from changes made to bugs back in February!--yes, I do file bugs in IssueZilla about shared bugs, and even, pre-tyrant, used to file bugs against pre-release versions of OOo....), so I was checking to see what had happened in these bugs. In this one bug, filed by someone who was very clearly trying to deploy OOo/X11 widely within his organization, the reporter happened to mention, as an aside, that he had tried Neo and the bug was not present here, so he was sure it could be fixed...and the tyrant just snapped and went off on the guy
The other fun part of "the big LIE" is the "NeoOffice has never contributed anything/Ed and Patrick have never done anything" bit.
Let's see:
1) There was a very public donation of well-tested fixes in spring 2006, including fixes for bugs that still existed in OOo 2 and some basic infrastructure for Mac-specific features applicable to any OOo-sponsored Aqua port
2) NeoOffice is now a proud premium sponsor of OOoCon 2006
3) Oh, hmm...the NWF/NMF was prototyped by Ed and Dan in NeoOffice/C and partially implemented in OOo by Dan (I guess this doesn't count because it primarily benefits OOo/GTK and OOo/KDE and NeoOffice today)
4) Ed wrote NeoLight and released it under the LGPL, bringing Spotlight support for "OpenOffice.org XML" and OpenDocument files to all users under 10.4.x (and could have been included with OOo builds, had TeamOOo so desired)
5) Ed and Dan (and a small crew of others) got the X11 port to compile and into useable condition, stopped Writer from crashing and other massive debugging and bug-fixing efforts, and released two final-release versions, 1.0.3 and 1.1.2
6) From the beginning until April 2006, trinity (hosted by Ed out of his own pocket) had support fora for OOo/X11 on the Mac, and for most of that period the OOo fora even got top billing
7) The existing basis (such that it is) for the Aqua port that TeamOOo is currently undertaking consists of code written by Patrick and his team from the Sun days and code contributed from NeoOffice/C by Ed and Dan.
So if NeoOffice or its authors had never contributed anything to OpenOffice.org, how do is there a Mac port at all?
Finally, and this will really aggravate the FUDsters, but...
8. The existence of a viable, working, vibrant Mac port of OpenOffice.org in NeoOffice allows OpenOffice.org to be adopted in cross-platform environments with significant populations of non-technical Mac users (and likewise facilitates StarOffice sales/support contracts for Sun, and even iBook program sales for Apple) where the X11 version, for whatever reasons on the part of the buyers, wouldn't cut it....
If contributions to OpenOffice.org are more than just about bringing forth code at this very second--and I certainly think they are; things like promoting the use of open formats like ODF, promoting the use of free and open-source software, and encouraging competition, among others--then NeoOffice has certainly been a useful citizen and a valuable contributor....
Smokey
/ranting away for the benefit of the Mac end-user
//and for users of open standards and open formats everywhere
Edit: Added NeoLight and trinity; how could I have forgotten them _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Last edited by sardisson on Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total
I think my favorite part of the whole thread was this bit by a rather balanced and neutral third-party:
Quote:
You got what you wanted (well, not what you wanted, because
obviously this is not about official use of stuff or not - but about
emotional personal conflicts between OOo supporters and NeoOffice, and -
sorry to say that, but - it seems like it's about getting NeoOffice
mention wiped from the earth).
Stop bitching.
Sorta reminds me of the apocryphal "Windows isn't done until [WordPerfect|Lotus] won't run"....
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Apr 25, 2006 Posts: 2315 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:15 am Post subject:
Quote:
2) NeoOffice is now a proud premium sponsor of OOoCon 2006
I'm sure Eric would be very unhappy about this (not only the fact that Neo is a sponsor, but also that Neo can afford to be a sponsor).
Now regarding one of Eric's favorite arguments, i.e. that NeoOffice uses mostly OpenOffice.org code and adds a few Megs on top of it (is a question, not a rant) :
We all know that Neo is based on OpenOffice.org, and therefore uses lots of OOo code. It doesn't seem hidden in any way (so much for the "lie"). But, how much does NeoOffice benefit from the efforts of the X11 port team in particular ? I know NeoOffice isn't directly based on OOo/X11, but some of the fixes that the X11 team contributes must be added to the mainstream OpenOffice.org code at some point. How does that affect NeoOffice ?
We all know that Neo is based on OpenOffice.org, and therefore uses lots of OOo code. It doesn't seem hidden in any way (so much for the "lie"). But, how much does NeoOffice benefit from the efforts of the X11 port team in particular ? I know NeoOffice isn't directly based on OOo/X11, but some of the fixes that the X11 team contributes must be added to the mainstream OpenOffice.org code at some point. How does that affect NeoOffice ?
From what I have seen, the X11 team fixes two types of bugs:
1. Compile errors
2. X11 bugs
The second group is of no use to NeoOffice as NeoOffice ignores the X11 code and compiles its own native code. It's just like if there is a fix in the Windows native code: it will fix a Windows bug but that change won't get compiled by NeoOffice.
On some occasions, the first group are used by us. However, from my perspective, fixing compile errors has always been the most trivial part of the NeoOffice work. I currently spend no more than 1 week (in total) per year working on OOo compile issues which is about the same as it was when Ed, Dan, or Kevin were the OOo X11 leads.
Joined: Feb 12, 2005 Posts: 607 Location: Australia
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:37 am Post subject:
pluby wrote:
From what I have seen, the X11 team fixes two types of bugs:
1. Compile errors
2. X11 bugs
The second group is of no use to NeoOffice as NeoOffice ignores the X11 code and compiles its own native code. It's just like if there is a fix in the Windows native code: it will fix a Windows bug but that change won't get compiled by NeoOffice.
On some occasions, the first group are used by us. However, from my perspective, fixing compile errors has always been the most trivial part of the NeoOffice work. I currently spend no more than 1 week (in total) per year working on OOo compile issues which is about the same as it was when Ed, Dan, or Kevin were the OOo X11 leads.
Patrick
As a code dunce, please fill me in on this: I initially thought that NeoOffice was dependent on OpenOffice.org X11 as a half-way port. That is, I thought that OpenOffice.org X11 was produced, then adapted to a native OS X program by you, Patrick and Ed (with assistance of course ). At my present level of understanding, I know that isn't the case, but are you saying that NeoOffice could exist without the work of OpenOffice.org X11 team?
here i go again, pretending to know what i am talking about (so flogg me if i am wrong)
neo is built against the main oo.o branch, not the mac port. so the 'official' 2.0.3 (for example) is used, not the mac port specific parts. patrick has (and may still) used patches from the mac port to correct build errors, etc.
neo, however, is not as simple as just a 'wrapper'. the applescript .app file, which is used by oo.o x11 is a 'wrapper' (which still can't do what Start OpenOffice.org did)
As a code dunce, please fill me in on this: I initially thought that NeoOffice was dependent on OpenOffice.org X11 as a half-way port. That is, I thought that OpenOffice.org X11 was produced, then adapted to a native OS X program by you, Patrick and Ed (with assistance of course ). At my present level of understanding, I know that isn't the case, but are you saying that NeoOffice could exist without the work of OpenOffice.org X11 team?
Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. It would add a little extra work, but not much. This may sound like an idle claim, but this is based on history as during the OOo 1.x days (and to a lesser extent in OOo 1.1.x, Ed and Dan did the OOo X11 work themselves.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:24 am Post subject:
Just also so folk are aware, even OOo X11 for Mac OS X is 99% code directly from Sun Microsystems. Very little of the actual X11 codebase has been written by non-Sun engineers. I'd almost go as far as to say that Patrick and I have probably written more novel code to add into OOo than any of the X11 work that anyone had done in the past.
Aside from us few folk doing piddly work on < 5% of the source code to do these ports, there really aren't many developers at all working on the core OOo code, new features, and maintenance who are not a part of Sun Microsystems. This is part of the overall dilemma that all ports face when the time comes that Sun no longer wants to fund OOo development out of the goodness of their heart...everyone is suddenly up s creek without a paddle (or, perhaps, with paddes and life preservers but in a rickety old leaking fishing boat...). The majority of OOo's volunteers in reality are in the community marketing project. It's going to be very difficult for a team of marketing personnel to continue ongoing development at the same scale as Sun is funding right now.
If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading Ed's account of the road to WWDC 2002. Besides finding out why he loves his Cube so much, you'll learn all about the mad skillz of Ed and Dan and how they know how to fix bugs that count.
There's not really much to point to about Patrick, other than that here's one guy who ported OOo to Mac OS X using mostly Java (+Carbon+Cocoa) and in under a year hooked up native fonts, printing, clipboard, drag-drop, etc., and that after about two years of work on Neo/C, Ed decided Neo/J was the future because it was rock-solid stable....
Seriously, here at NeoOffice you have two of the four most experienced Mac porters in all of OOo history.
Smokey
/who still dreams, once in a while, that Dan will start hacking on Neo again _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 291 Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:32 am Post subject:
sardisson wrote:
If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading Ed's account of the road to WWDC 2002. Besides finding out why he loves his Cube so much, you'll learn all about the mad skillz of Ed and Dan and how they know how to fix bugs that count.
There's not really much to point to about Patrick, other than that here's one guy who ported OOo to Mac OS X using mostly Java (+Carbon+Cocoa) and in under a year hooked up native fonts, printing, clipboard, drag-drop, etc., and that after about two years of work on Neo/C, Ed decided Neo/J was the future because it was rock-solid stable....
Seriously, here at NeoOffice you have two of the four most experienced Mac porters in all of OOo history.
As Ed asked in the other thread about suggestions for talks to give at the OOoCon: Apart from the nitty-gritty technical stuff, maybe there should also be something like "The History of Porting OpenOffice.org to The Mac". First, I think this would be really interesting (and a pain more for me for not being there). Secondly, I think there are now many at the OpenOffice.org project who know next to nothing about this history & are maybe too easy influenced into a bandwagon mentality by the recent FUD that "these NeoOffice guys" came from nowhere and "stole" "their" code by a "easy & dirty wrapping around of a Java-GUI".
As Ed asked in the other thread about suggestions for talks to give at the OOoCon: Apart from the nitty-gritty technical stuff, maybe there should also be something like "The History of Porting OpenOffice.org to The Mac". First, I think this would be really interesting (and a pain more for me for not being there). Secondly, I think there are now many at the OpenOffice.org project who know next to nothing about this history & are maybe too easy influenced into a bandwagon mentality by the recent FUD that "these NeoOffice guys" came from nowhere and "stole" "their" code by a "easy & dirty wrapping around of a Java-GUI".
Hmm. I do not know if that is a good idea. You might get heckled incessantly by an angry Frenchman..
I say stick to the tech stuff and put in an amazing anecdote when it is functional.
best wishes,
Oscar _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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