Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: Why the censorship?
After seeing Eric's presentation for OOoCon 2006 (thanks for putting it online!) and getting feedback from users...really...
Why the censorship?
Users do have another option which, of course, is not under the aegis of OOo. But really...why the censorship?
We have the same goals...making OOo accessible for Mac OS X users. After the great directive that exorcised our name from any OOo associated site, it surprised me that the actions of the OOo community have repressed knowledge of our existance from the wider OOo user community.
We're done. We've got a full Aqua control implementation. So why, again, did you decide to stop letting users know there is another open source solution?
We are here.
It is time to stop the flame war and realize that, unfortunately, OOo is a different solution, it is not the only solution. It is time to step down off the high-horse and see that open source does not benefit from a single giant tree, but rather a great forest of alternative soluions, each using each other for the gain of all.
Stop using the propoganda tools utilized by repressive governments and autocrats in the past; I call upon you all to get over your own egos and realize that, for the benefit of users, it's time to again publicly recognize that users have a viable alternative that is usable today.
We do not seek to denegrate alternative technical approaches at all. Stop hurting users by failing to inform them that alternative approaches exist and are usable today in production environments that have been tested by 500,000 users and growing. Stop giving uninformed people a carrot of a native solution from yourselves that is still years down the line when, really, they do have other alternatives that can meet their needs today. If you need an enemy, target Microsoft. Attacking another open source project is just really in poor form.
Get off your high horse and return back to our gentlemen's colisting agreement; if you want more prominent links from our own site, let us know and you'll get them. Stop hurting Mac users for no reason other than to boost the prominence of your own project and your own egos.
ed
Last edited by OPENSTEP on Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 1285 Location: Witless Protection Program
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Why the censorship?
OPENSTEP wrote:
After seeing Eric's presentation for OOoCon 2006 (thanks for putting it online!) and getting feedback from users...really...
Why the censorship?
<snip>
ed
Ed,
Are (some) of these direct quotes?
It's hard to tell if these are direct quotes, para-phrasing, and/or summaries.
If some of these are direct quotes please let us know. That would be VERY interesting.
Quote:
you can leave the name/source off the quotes if folks don't want that listed
This is all very ... interesting / exciting! Thanks for sharing.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject:
No, none of those were quotes, rather just what's on my mind. I figured that ranting is the best place for it I'm curious as to why Zaheda was asking so many questions, but hey.
Pavel was very generous and pleasing when he stopped by and I'm hoping he'll drop by or drop us an e-mail privately for help in the future.
None of them are really direct quotes, but of course, feel free to quote me for posterity (even though I don't like that at times ).
The big thing I came away with is this:
Neither Patrick nor I want a single large tree; we don't want a single stack solution. We'd rather see a thriving forest, all kinds of different approaches to allow OOo to work on all platforms. Having multiple solutions and choice is a good thing. Problems we find in one may not be evident yet in the other, but that doesn't mean they're not there. Only through multiple different approaches will we all find one that's the most stable and the most optimal. A forest is much more sustainable for the world in the long run than a single tree
Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 1285 Location: Witless Protection Program
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject:
OPENSTEP wrote:
Pavel was very generous and pleasing when he stopped by and I'm hoping he'll drop by or drop us an e-mail privately for help in the future.
Pavel seems like a good egg (English Phrase). I have emailed him several times and it seems that he would just like to do the very best for OOo. I think that is a GREAT idea and hope that he will feel comfortable enough to will email you or Patrick on code problems.
Having more eyes looking for solutions to best, for ALL!
OPENSTEP wrote:
Neither Patrick nor I want a single large tree; we don't want a single stack solution. We'd rather see a thriving forest, all kinds of different approaches to allow OOo to work on all platforms.
Having multiple solutions and choice is a good thing. Problems we find in one may not be evident yet in the other, but that doesn't mean they're not there. Only through multiple different approaches will we all find one that's the most stable and the most optimal.
A forest is much more sustainable for the world in the long run than a single tree
ed
A GREAT idea and one that I strongly support.
Just as I support not having everything in MS Windows - One Virus could bring down the ... world. (ref: "One Ring to Rule the ALL")
It's a shame that the Mac users don't have easy access to as many OOo solutions as possible.
Philip (Excited about NeoOffice 2.Oh! - with creamy Aqua goodness! )
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject:
Yes, both Pavel and Florian stopped by to say hello and were very friendly. I hope they feel welcome to contact us either through the fora or e-mail for any problems they encounter. There really is so much we can learn from each other. In a way, I do envy them; they get a fresh start and can take a new approach and play with fun newer technology For better or for worse (better, IMHO) we've got a lot of users so we can't really do anything terribly radical any longer. We really need to keep Neo as stable as possible
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: Interesting...
Finally we may be at the heart of the problem...
A core OOo team member noted us as being a "commercial project that has forked OpenOffice.org". While yes, we may be incorporated for legal purposes in the USA, I'm amused that now we are the corporate enemy
Perhaps it's because we dare to solicit donations that don't go to Team OpenOffice.org EV It's kind of sad that in the end it really all seems to come down to money
Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 1285 Location: Witless Protection Program
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting...
OPENSTEP wrote:
Finally we may be at the heart of the problem...
A core OOo team member noted us as being a "commercial project that has forked OpenOffice.org".
ed
What a ... SILLY statement.
I'm sorry to hear such a statement from core OOo team member (Mac port, or OOo central?).
I can't believe an Open Source Community member would say such ... drivel.
There are many Linux versions, OpenOffice Premium (and all the discord on the marketing lists ), several "commercial" versions, even a Chinese hosted version.
Funny, I just notice that the "derivatives page" is missing from OOo Mac downloads page.
Even Funnier that ONLY one version listed was just for the Mac.
How is NeoOffice any different - other than it has consistently provided support for the entire Mac user community. NeoOffice, and for X11 in the past!
Philip ( supporting the WHOLE "darn" OOo Community - regardless of Operating System - or politics )
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject:
Doesn't matter if it seems silly, it's what they think.
The cool and ironic thing was that, while at OOoCon, the RedFlag (?) Chinese representative aproached us looking for something that could help his Chinese Mac users. Hopefully he'll help guide them to us since we can do input in Chinese and other asian languages. We had a lot of folk approach us who had never heard of us before, which is both I think a good thing and a bad thing.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject:
sardisson wrote:
OPENSTEP wrote:
Yes, both Pavel and Florian stopped by to say hello and were very friendly.
Hopefully that won't get them in trouble
I highly doubt that. I hope we really created a rapport that makes them feel welcome, and vice versa The entire OOo community, really, was very cordial and welcoming. Regardless of what may have happened in the past, I do think that the goodwill is a sign of better times ahead.
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: The hope for a better future
Yeah, as Ed rightly said, there was no hostile environment there in Lyon at all. The important thing in FOSS world is to have fun doing what one is doing. Any petty tribal wars are just eating up from the time one can use for hacking. The objectives and technological choices of NeoOffice and MacOSX OpenOffice.org can be different, but the important is that we do what we enjoy doing. Somebody once told that if you put Gnome and KDE developers for a week-end in one room, you will get at the end a nice toy; but if you put Gnome and KDE supporters in the same settings, you will have to count casualties. IMHO, the situation of NeoOffice.org and MacOSX OpenOffice.org is the same.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:08 am Post subject:
I never heard that saying about Gnome and KDE guys. The real question is...what toy would they make? Somehow I have an image of a motorized remote control little red wagon made of Legos, but I could be totally wrong...
I never heard that saying about Gnome and KDE guys. The real question is...what toy would they make? Somehow I have an image of a motorized remote control little red wagon made of Legos, but I could be totally wrong...
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I don't see her on the video but I know the voice, I think.
Are (some) of these direct quotes?
I'm curious as to why Zaheda was asking so many questions, but hey.
).
For better or for worse (better, IMHO) we've got a lot of users so we can't really do anything terribly radical any longer. We really need to keep Neo as stable as possible 
