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NeoOffice :: View topic - Reply to the Architect's attitude
Reply to the Architect's attitude
 
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Uzine
Agent


Joined: Feb 23, 2007
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply to the Architect's attitude Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. But do beware Mr Architect : you guys are "into it" and maybe a tad too much. I'm just a user. Even though I started off with an Atari in '87 and a Mac from '91 onwards, I'm still just a user. I use a computer to do things outside of the computer, and I'm hardly interested in versions, patches, beta versions, etc. I'm just a clumsy person who wanted Neo Office on the Mac I bought 2005-11, and by surfing to openoffice.org I was sucked up in a WAY TOO TECHNICAL world with jargon such as "mirror sites" and all that. And I ended up downloading two open office suites of which one worked, and that was Neo Office 1. Since then, the Planamesa site has told me a version 2 exists, but over the years I've learned to distrust .0 versions, and so I'll be using v1 until v2.1 comes along. Moreover because I do most of my word processing in WP 3.5 (cf. http://acmfiles.csusb.edu/corel/wpmac.html), which I've been using in my own customised version(s) since 1992 and where I can easily edit codes etc. Though open source software is great, an open source version of Word is still a version of Word to me, and to me that software does not feel right. The interface is too complicated, etc.

As a communication professional, native tongue Dutch, I can only urge to simplify the starting pages of the Open Office sites. Give dummies an easy access to what they're looking for, and then add on the mumbo jumbo instead of the other way around.

In simpler terms : don't go bottom down "sender to user" but think from the dummy user and build it from there.

More people would become users.
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(moved as this is not related to Development)

ed
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11882
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Reply to the Architect's attitude Reply with quote

Uzine wrote:
As a communication professional, native tongue Dutch, I can only urge to simplify the starting pages of the Open Office sites. Give dummies an easy access to what they're looking for, and then add on the mumbo jumbo instead of the other way around.


Simplify the OpenOffice sites? We do not have any connection to the OpenOffice.org sites. We use their source code, that is all. That is why we have our own www.neooffice.org site.

Sorry you don't like the term mirrors but this term is in wide usage for any website that handles a huge number of downloads like we do and you can find the definition of "mirrors" in this context nicely documented in Wikipedia. While having a single download link is something that projects with few downloads can manage, NeoOffice currently averages 500,000 downloads per month and we expect that number to double in our next release.

Patrick

Patrick
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Uzine
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Joined: Feb 23, 2007
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To YOU there is no connection, from your perspective.

But I discovered Neo Office via the Open Office site. To me, Neo Office is one of the versions of Open Office available. Developed by different people, and so on. But even so : do not ignore the fact that dummies like me may only chance upon Neo Office thanks to Open Office dot org or other reference sites.

Soit. 'nuff said. I've already exhausted this topic, the zest of which is "try to think from the dummy's point of view". And don't be defensive about it - I was hardly "complaining" as you immediately put it. But then again I got a bit defensive at the sight of an agressive Spock face.

Apart from the fact that the "My Dutch Mac OS 10.4 keeps setting MS Word as default" problem hasn't been solved yet, I'm grateful for all the feedback re: versions for 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 on this forum and elsewhere.

Apart from that, I'm sorry if this thread is no longer connected to "A few details" in "trinity.neooffice.org Forum Index -> NeoOffice Development" as posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:10 am. Dunno what went wrong.

All the best, and looking forward to succesfully downloading a Dutch Neo Office 2.1 soon !
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11882
Location: California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uzine wrote:
But I discovered Neo Office via the Open Office site. To me, Neo Office is one of the versions of Open Office available. Developed by different people, and so on. But even so : do not ignore the fact that dummies like me may only chance upon Neo Office thanks to Open Office dot org or other reference sites.


Actually, I have to agree with you about the OpenOffice.org site. I have a terrible time finding anything there. It is actually surprising that you found us via that site as there is has been a strong push to remove all links to NeoOffice and other "derivative products" on the OpenOffice.org site. We used to have an unofficial agreement with Sun Microsystems' OpenOffice.org website management about cross-linking to each other, but apparently Sun Microsystems' staff and/or OpenOffice.org volunteers at some point decided that we were bad and all mention of NeoOffice was expunged from the OpenOffice.org site.

The fact that you are finding links to NeoOffice from OpenOffice.org hopefully indicates that some of the competitive feelings at OpenOffice.org are subsiding.

Patrick
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowing you are Dutch, I'm sure nobody has taken much offense (Patrick, you remember how I was in the beginning right?). You meant well, even if it came across in a bit of a stereotypically harsh manner.

It is always difficult to make the transition from an enthusiast project to an application in wide use that attracts people that are a bit less savvy. We've worked hard on this, both in term of cosmetics (see the new shiny icons), in technical integration into Mac OSX (printing and file picker dialogs) and especially in providing tips and instructions on the wiki in already five languages. You also get lightning-fast bug fixes, sometimes within 8 hours of a bug being reported.

I trust this will continue. I will be here to answer questions for time to come and so will many other regulars. Fortunately, we can now usually point to the wiki for answers Smile.

There are also limitations.. NeoOffice does not sell DVDs that have all language packs and dictionaries included in an integrated installer. Plugin and media support is limited, and there are many other things that look small to the uninitiated but will take a lot of work to make better. Because of limited resources, this will be a while. That is the flipside of free software.

The upside is that you have many opportunities to fix this. If you do not like the website, I am sure you can convince Patrick to adopt a differently phrased one which is more dummy-friendly and still says what it has to.

However, I am also of the opinion that people should learn basic computer terms and concepts when they start using them. Computers are much more complicated than cars. While getting a driver's license is an arduous process, computers can just be bought at the local supermarket. This lets in a lot of people who are in over their head.

I am not saying using a computer will put you in a life-threatening situation as quickly as a car, but last week's train mess due to a single computer failure should be an illustration that this can get messy (for non-Dutch: the rail traffic people had their vital data on a single machine without backup and it failed, causing two days of chaos on the tracks).

For instance, a new user (on Windows, at least) should know what is meant with a driver on a computer. Or what a file extension entails, or a cookie.

As for your own case, I would suggest moving to NeoOffice 2.0 as it is by now already better and more stable than 1.x. If you are still wary, version 2.1 is available for a small donation now and will be available for free in the near future. I hope you will find using NeoOffice more easy than getting it.

Best wishes,
Oscar (from Utrecht)

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"What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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rays
The Anomaly
(earlier version)


Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 475
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
Actually, I have to agree with you about the OpenOffice.org site. I have a terrible time finding anything there.


Too right!

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Ray Saunders
World Scout Bureau
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
The fact that you are finding links to NeoOffice from OpenOffice.org hopefully indicates that some of the competitive feelings at OpenOffice.org are subsiding.


Still no links that either google or I can see besides the stagnant wiki page and the standard mailing list drivel.

I did however find this one fun piece of irony:

According to the PDF metadata, the License Statement from the community council that explains the end of dual licensing was written using NeoOffice Laughing

Tools.

ed
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I submit for the jury proof of the toolage since, being tools, I suspect they'll exorcise even this buried reference to the name of that which cannot be spoken of in OOo:



ed
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rays
The Anomaly
(earlier version)


Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 475
Location: Geneva, Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya beauty!
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iking
Operator


Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a dodge there -- at the time that statement was being typed up, Neo was still being given equal billing at OOo and still accepted as legitimate. Rather a weak argument, but surely Louis wouldn't be some sort of hypocrite and use the bastard child of OOo on his Mac once ericb declared that there was only One True Port. Right?

So I wandered over to Louis's conference talks to see what he's been using lately. Turns out he was using Neo 2.0b3 for his 'monetizing' talk at OOoCon 2006. Lest he pull all evidence, here's my screenshot of the metadata.



What's this? The community manager won't use his community's officially blessed product -- and sticks with Neo even after it's been banished to some obscure Wiki page! Puts the boots to the argument (advanced by ericb and friends) that it's all about the community and the project, rather than the end product -- even though, for most users (regardless of their OS), the product is what counts.
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think it's sad that certain tools are focused not on a product, but rather on politics...but I've already out lined this in my latest manifesto.

Some people really are such tools that deserve the nickname "Craftsman" Very Happy

ed
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iking
Operator


Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you -- any project (open source or othersuch) that rewards politics and bureaucratic gamesmanship over expertise is headed for trouble. I feel sorry for any Mac user that never gets beyond OOo -- they're missing out on great software in Neo and may be turned off open source after struggling with the X11 version. (I'm referring here to the less-savvy Mac users out there; those who have reason to want the X11 version already know about it and aren't afraid of a little extra work.)

I'm amazed at the engineering work that Patrick and you have done to tame the OOo beast to run this well under OS X. Neo has been important to me in that I can use what is basically the same office suite no matter what computer I'm sitting at; I don't have to send money to redmond or lock my data into obscure or overly tricky formats. As far as I'm concerned, Neo is a winner. (And now I've got to run out of the office and can't play with 2.1 until tomorrow... drat!)

Ian
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iking wrote:
(And now I've got to run out of the office and can't play with 2.1 until tomorrow... drat!)


Ha! (and thanks for the kind words). I think you'll like 2.1...the icon work that all the folks have done really is pretty phenomenal. Really completes the ambiance Smile

ed
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jakeOSX
Ninja
Ninja


Joined: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the oo.ox11 group (i suppose they are the oo.omac group now...) confuses me in such a large amount that i no longer try to understand where they are coming from.

for example, what oo.ox11 release are we on? i have 2.1, but is that current? website doesn't tell you.

i hang out at oooforums.org to help the mac stragglers. i give support for x11 because the official list does not. they have banashed users to the users mailing list. because we all know how similar x11 and windows xp are.

and don't even get me started about the fucking readme.

that being said, i generally don't answer x11 questions with "go download neooffice!" the reason being is i despise that answer. if the question is "how do i X with this program" the answer shouldn't be "go download another program".

and yes, i've answered the 'it tells me that i have a newer version of x11 installed when i try to install the version from apple's web site' question a lot. (see readme comment).

i'm sure this was going somewhere.

i think the point was that ninjas are better than pirates.
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