i don't want to sound confrontational, intention is often hard to show on the internet. however, if users had to pay to get support, that support will come without my help.
one of the reasons that neo is such an improvement over openoffice.org has nothing to do with the program. it is purely this community. we support neooffice users. (some of us support openoffice.org users too, but that is just because someone has to)
I agree with you for two reasons: 1) charging for support brings in some really burdensome responsibilities that we don't have by giving away NeoOffice and support for free and 2) tying Trinity to a PayPal's user database scares the hell out of me.
My announcement was not to say "pay up or we stop providing our nearly 24x7 Bugzilla support". Instead, it was to say we are taking back our lives and doing support like most good community-run projects do. Most users won't even notice a difference. The people that will notice this change will be organizations who use Bugzilla as their corporate NeoOffice help desk.
What I'd really like to see is that by having more sane response times to Bugzilla requests, more users will find their way to these forums and, with subtle encouragement, they will help the cause by answering other users' questions as they start becoming more familiar with NeoOffice.
jakeOSX wrote:
i've been thinking about this, as the money part comes up every six months or so. i did think about putting google ads on the wiki. but as i know nothing of the adsense payout, i didn't know if their intrusion would be worth it or not.
I would encourage you to do this if it helps subsidize your NeoWiki costs. The ads get served from google.com so there is no additional load on your server. But, realize that Google ads make only a tiny amount of money. Basically, if you make US$100 per quarter, you are doing well.
jakeOSX wrote:
external features. here is the grand one, the neooffice/star office comparison. make the 'enterprise' version of neooffice. have certain features only availible through purchase. what features? i dunno, i can survive with old stuff, so that would be up to someone to research. but with this you can charge for a liscence.
This is essentially the gist of shifting our time away from doing nearly 24x7 support to development and fundraising. For us, fundraising means developing other products or NeoOffice extensions that a small subset of users find useful and are willing to pay for. For example, although I don't know if it is worth implementing but every so often people complain about lack of video support in their presentation. This would take at least a solid couple months to implement properly and only a small number of NeoOffice downloaders (maybe greater than 0.1%) find videos in their presentation necessary for their work. If only 0.1% of NeoOffice downloaders (that's 500 per month) were willing to pay $25 for such a plug-in, we'd be able to subcontract out most of our accounting, admistrative, and IT work and have some left over for a part time person to evaluate and priority Bugzilla requests.
I'm not sure that particular idea is a good one, but Ed and I have several ideas that are both interesting and may tap into the special needs of corporate users to subsidize NeoOffice for the other 99.9% of users.
sell naked pictures of ed on ebay. yes, i know we all have some already, but new ones could bring in a hefty amount.
jakeOSX wrote:
write a book. no i am serious. write a book on neooffice/openoffice. ed, you can write one on the who start of the effort, why neo was made, etc. patrick, perhaps a guidebook to either oo.o coding, or an overview of working with a large opensource program. you got a lot of knowledge up there, putting it on paper would benifit us all. so you write these books, we can use Lulu, or even just PDF it and sell it.
This is a nice idea (and one I'll consider if I ever retire), but the whole point of this thread is that Ed and I have a fixed amount of time. I think it is far more effective for Ed and I to spend as much of our time on what we do best: writing software. That is our profession and it is our core area of expertise.
jakeOSX wrote:
hell, if the community was up for it, a user guide for neo would be great. you could pull most of it from the wiki i suppose. we could sell it for $10 and people would buy it. (oh yes! they would!) have $0.50 go to ed and patrick, the rest come to me and smokey.
Now we are getting somewhere. I really like this concept and as it actively involves the users. Ideas like this allows users to actively contribute both directly and indirectly to NeoOffice. Even if you give the user guide away, you are providing a service to NeoOffice by reducing the support burdle that we and the many Trinity and NeoWiki volunteers have to spend time on. This benefits everyone. The NeoWiki is a perfect case study of this effect: practically anyone can help write tips and documentation that helps users without needing Ed and I's involvement or approval.
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject:
pluby wrote:
it was to say we are taking back our lives
I am glad that you and Ed are doing this. I have been worried about the strain of the hours you put in and the expectation of 24/7 support.
My line of work is very different (I'm a pastor), but it is similarly one which can entail long hours and expectations that one is available 24/7 for large numbers of people. The stress can be literally lethal; it can also destroy health, relationships, and even careers. In February I had news of three colleagues in my state who succombed to such stress. One committed suicide. One was caught stealing money from church accounts to cover gambling debts. The third has been convicted of sexual misconduct. I know the last two well; they are gifted individuals who began their ministry with the best of intentions, but they failed to excercise proper self-care and ended up betraying their sacred trust.
I do not want either of you to end up paying such a price, both for your sake, and for Neo's.
All of that is a long way of saying that I fully support your decision to take your lives back. There will undoubtedly be grumblers, but know that there are also many of us cheering you on for choosing to care for yourselves.
aussie149 is already adapting the OOo user guide to NeoOffice. And he has done a lot of very interesting work. It's a good base for beginners. But I think that we would be able to complete it, maybe with several little specialized guides. The wiki stuff would be a good source, which needs enhancements, It is sufficient to find volunteers who have time for that work.
I'm feeling comfortable with the Math component (just to say…)
Actually, I didn't really favour nickel & dime solutions earlier, but the whole point has been that website visitors and downloads are going through the roof. At which point these small amounts start to add up. Hence, the google ads.
Feature enhancement pledge drives might be an option, given how quickly a lot of open source projects can get money when they say what it will be used for.
Anything that requires Patrick to be on call or deadline is basically out, so there's no point thinking in that direction.
I would wonder if it is possible to sell Wiki+Forum+Bugzilla logins. Not on a per-message basis, but simply a flat $10 rate on registration. We'd have to put something on-line open that shows it is worth it, but other stuff could be behind a fence. For instance, the installation FAQ and troubleshooting could be open, but the tips and tricks could be limited.
I find it a dangerous place to go, and I see no other ways to put the efforts and collected wisdom of this wonderful support community towards funding NeoOffice. Of course, if the treshold is too high people here would leave here and others would set up parallel support fora. We would also run the risk of real bugs no longer being reported. What to do?
Selling manuals probably has the same pros and cons as selling CDs, even if the demand for manuals would be higher. I hear that it is quite feasible to get on-demand printing done these days. There is a fine manual under construction right now, and I also saw a nice list of FAQs from migrants from MS Office that was listed in one of the news articles on OO.org (if anyone wants to see it, I saved a copy and I can post it or PM it).
A scheme based on the code is difficult, since GPL requires that anything built on GPL code is also GPL and therefore freely available. Of course, people pay for the QA and compiling done by Patrick in EAP.
I could envision a patch-subscription service á la EAP, where subscribers get a patch immediately and the rest of the world has to compile or wait for a week. This would run into trouble if there are test-patches still floating around that do the same thing, but you could turn on periodic donation page viewings for test patches which would probably stop admins from distributing an otherwise fine test patch to a large group of end users.
More thoughts, feel free to shoot.
Best wishes,
Oscar _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
From my point of view I see NeoOffice in the professional category i.e. the same users who would otherwise purchase MSOffice, rather than the personal category with products such as iWorks. Based on this is where my ideas for a premium support system. I can see why you wouldnt want to do it yourselves But because bugzilla is starting to turn into a premium support system, it shows that there is a need for one, which should be seperated out of bugzilla.
I would really like to see the developers being better valued for their talents. So I think their shouldn't be an expectation that they give their time/talents away without that recognition of value in return (either by money or other ways)
After thinking further, a training book (especially from a MS Office users point of view) would be an ideal solution as I think it would lessen the load on the forums - users can be encouraged to buy and read the book first Its a way to provide paid support without needing to provide the continuous manpower
Joined: Feb 12, 2005 Posts: 607 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: Manuals
jgd wrote:
aussie149 is already adapting the OOo user guide to NeoOffice. And he has done a lot of very interesting work. It's a good base for beginners. But I think that we would be able to complete it, maybe with several little specialized guides. The wiki stuff would be a good source, which needs enhancements, It is sufficient to find volunteers who have time for that work.
I'm feeling comfortable with the Math component (just to say…)
(I agree with Lorinda, take your lives back!)
Jacqueline
I am a little off-put by the discussion above, so I am glad that Jacqueline jumped in to remind people that something is already in the pipeline here. I'd hate to think that she and I were wasting our time editing the OpenOffice.org 2.0 User Guide to suit NeoOffice users, if there is another one being written or planned somewhere. If so,please let us know now, and we can decide where to put our efforts
Is the one we are working on saleable? To be frank, I don't know. There is first of all the licence, which I believe we are working within provided we attach that licence and include revisions. So we can happily publish. On the other hand, I don't own the copyright to the original, so I have no idea what that means in terms of someone else charging for it. My goal has always been altruistic, in the sense of providing something that was not there before - and which would encourage people to use NeoOffice. I have had no pecuniary interest in doing this. Experts in copyright law please step forward.
What I can say conclusively is that starting from scratch would be a "non-trivial" exercise. It is far, far easier to piggy-back on the work of someone else [as I and Jacqueline have done with Gerry's et al's work]. Then you don't have to think of all the examples, draw them up, work them through, etc. A chapter on Writer would be straight-forward in most respects - although still very time-consuming - but not one on Calc or Draw.
I am already incorporating sections of the NeoWiki into this current User Guide production, but I agree with Jacqueline that it wouldn't be hard for various folk here [other than Ed and Patrick, who are stretched thin already] to produce supplementary texts to suit particular needs [eg Maths, as Jacqueline proposes, or Calc or Base, parts of the program not as comprehensively covered in the OpenOffice.org Guide as they might be. Even the Impress section only really touches the edges of that program's potential].
The OpenOffice.org authors have produced a huge number of templates, guides, tips and hints to make it very easy for an expert on some part of NeoOffice to whip up a 20-page guide in a few days [or nights ].
Sorry about the length here. I used to be very concise when I was working. Now that I am retired...
Joined: Feb 03, 2004 Posts: 241 Location: Scotland
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:07 am Post subject:
Peter, from what I have seen of your work on the user guide so far you and Jacqueline are doing a sterling job. I have been using previous versions of this document since I first switched to StarOffice some years back. In fact, more than 95% of the questions of all NeoOffice power users (and beginners) are answered in there. Therefore, IMO there is no need for a further publication, particularly if Peter and Jacqueline could be pursuaded eventually to incorporate the short documents put together for MSOffice/Ooo switchers. Just because NeoOffice is "free" does not mean that we cannot expect new users to read the manual. It may be an idea for the future to answer any obvious questions posted to the fora just with a reference to the user guide, just to instill that sort of discipline.
All other questions posted in the fora about unexpected behaviour, bugs etc must get through to Patrick, Ed and others so that they get allerted to these issues.
Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 1285 Location: Witless Protection Program
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:08 am Post subject:
So many ideas, So little time (to reply)
Patrick and Ed - Family and Health is more important than ... Neo (Darn - That hurts to say )
If nothing else - do some kind of triage, and take Patrick and Ed off 7/24 support and responses.
( NeoOffice has a reputation for lightning fast patches - they really don't have to be on a daily basis. )
- I most liked the ideas about Guides, Workbooks, User Guide ( Peter and Jacqueline - depending on Copyrights...) and such.
http://www.tidbits.com/ has created a growing business of Mac related eBooks (http://www.takecontrolbooks.com/). If you have not seen/read/purchased any of these, you are missing out! They have the system to publish, NeoOffice / NeoWiki is ripe with ... opportunities?
- Subscriptions? Who knows... Maybe some kind of Flat subcription?!?
If I buy tidbits for $10 each, I would $10 per year for NeoOffice. (or something like that!)
- I really liked the ideas about generating support points.
I have seen this on other sites... Not sure how they work?
- Business sponsors for features like VBA support, oXML, and such. If they want it fast, foot the bill for the rest of us?!? (doesn't like like there will be the "other" native Mac version for ... a while )
I know TidBits and have bought several of their Take Controll eBooks. They are outstanding and very helpful. But I'm not sure that it could be easy to do just as well.
I think that we can (and must) give the NeoOffice version of OOo User guide for free. Then it could be possible to propose some additional documentation (separated more little guides for each module, for instance) for a small subscription (10$ per year ?). If those additional guides were done from the wiki, they could be in several languages without too much work, and it would be nice!
But I don't like the idea of the support points. We have something like that here in Fr for the driving license. You start with 12 points and if you do a driving offence, you lose 1, 2,… 6 points. So losing points is beeing guilty. Normal for a driver, not for a Neo user.
(I've still my 12 points )
I was discussing some of the issues raised here with my assistant, Marcus. We were reviewing the current crop of recent submissions (and admiring the dedication and work of those who have responded to them).
Have we considered simply not responding to any bug reports which are submitted by someone without the latest patch already installed, whether on (currently) 2.0 B 3 P15 or 2.1 EAR? In other words, the bug can't be submitted unless the combination of version and patch level are at the current versions.
Is there a javascript or something that could be added into the bug report form that simply rejects the submission with an explanation pointing to where to get the latest patch? Version and Patch level should be compulsory entry (with entry 'none' available for 2.1 EAR at present.)
It's a step which we could take beyond the flashing message we have at present. Would it help? _________________ Ray Saunders
World Scout Bureau
Let's drop the how "how can Ed and Patrick continue to do premium customer support services for free". I think Ed and I have been pretty clear that this isn't going to happen. Ed and I are going back to doing what we do best: development.
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:43 am Post subject:
I've been reading most of these posts with the assumption that the extra work involved would have be be done by volunteers, and that the aim was to a) generate more income for the Neo project and/or b)take more of the load off of your and Ed's shoulders, not that we were expecting you to continue to overextend yourselves.
I do have two related suggestions for Buzilla, at least one of which is probably already assumed in the post that started this thread, but which I'll state explicitly here for the sake of clarification. I would propose that:
1) we add to the current alert box about downloading a patch a "requirement" that users read the Bugzilla article in the wiki (http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/Bugzilla_Guide)
2) It is understood that neither Patrick or Ed respond in any way to a bug report until it meets some basic criteria: a) latest patch b) clear sequence of steps and c) reproducible. It then falls on the shoulders of the person reporting the bug and those of us who volunteer to triage bugs to get the bugs to that stage.
2b) After a bug meets the stated criteria, it is wholly at Patrick and Ed's discretion as to when/if the bug is further explored/fixed. As Philip has said, as much as we have appreciated the speed of fixes in the past, it is not necessary for them to happen that quickly, nor is it realistic for us to expect that every little bug is fixed given the project's limited resources.
Will there be people who ignore the patch/wiki "alert" on Bugzilla's home page? Absolutely. But they will be held accountable by not getting any developer attention until they have met the minimum requirements for a bug report. And I'm committing to be one of the people who holds their feet to the fire so Patrick doesn't have to.
If Patrick and Ed think this policy makes sense, I will edit the Buzilla page in the wiki to reflect this.
I'm "no one" to suggest things but (if it helps...):
1. Maybe we can "close" bugzilla only for problems that first are prooved and "reproduced" by other users. Therefore FIRST everybody have to ask in Trinity... and only "councilman" or "oracle" users can fill a bug in bugzilla.
2. Ed and Patrick only works on "Bugzilla" and don't "support" on Trinity. If there's a problem that need the "experience" or the work of Peter or Ed but it's not a bug, one "councilman" or "oracle" user has to say that on the fora and pm Ed or Patrick.
Maybe I didn't understand well the previous post
NB: Lorinda, now I know why you know and use the Nestle-Alland... Pastor... interesting!
1) we add to the current alert box about downloading a patch a "requirement" that users read the Bugzilla article in the wiki (http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/Bugzilla_Guide)
I will meet you have way. If you tell me how the wording in the existing alert box should be changed, I'll edit the existing alert box. But Bugzilla is not a Wiki and all of the HTML is created in PHP code so I want to limit the scope of the text changes to fit within the existing page layout.
Lorinda wrote:
2) It is understood that neither Patrick or Ed respond in any way to a bug report until it meets some basic criteria: a) latest patch b) clear sequence of steps and c) reproducible. It then falls on the shoulders of the person reporting the bug and those of us who volunteer to triage bugs to get the bugs to that stage.
I was going to post this same thing in a new topic but, of course, I have not had time yet. Ed and I created a new status - Reproducible but not assigned - explicitly for this purpose. It will be a holding area for bugs that are clearly and easily reproducible.
Most importantly, there are a few conditions that should cause a bug to be closed:
- Not a bug - This is the classic support request. Bugzilla is a bug tracking system, not a customer service center. Generally, support requests are "how do I do something" questions. These should be closed and referred to our user support site: the NeoOffice Support forum. In addition, this resolution includes enhancement requiests. These generally clog up every bug tracking system that I have ever worked with. We have several forums where people can suggest how they think we should enhance NeoOffice. However, Bugzilla is for bugs, not wish lists.
- OpenOffice.org bug - Any bug should be confirmed to not occur in the equivalent OOo X11 version before it is moved to the "Reproducible but not assigned" state. If the bug occurs in the equivalent OOo version, it should be closed as our scope has not changed and we are not going to fix OOo's bugs.
- odf-converter bugs - If this is a bug in opening or saving Office 2007 Word files, get them to a reproducible state and then close them with this resolution. Periodically Ed and I will query closed bugs with this status and either fix the odf-converter code or post the bug in the odf-converter projects bugtracking system.
- ooo-build bugs - If this is a bug with the Excel macros or the Calc solver feature, get them to a reproducible state and then close them with this resolution. Periodically Ed and I will query closed bugs with this status and either fix the code or forward the bug to Novell.
Lorinda wrote:
2b) After a bug meets the stated criteria, it is wholly at Patrick and Ed's discretion as to when/if the bug is further explored/fixed. As Philip has said, as much as we have appreciated the speed of fixes in the past, it is not necessary for them to happen that quickly, nor is it realistic for us to expect that every little bug is fixed given the project's limited resources.
In the past, our process was to have volunteers assign bugs to me when they were clearly reproducible. However, that process should now be replaced by settings such bugs to "Reproducible but not assigned". Ed and I will periodically scan through the bugs and look for critical bugs and assign them to ourselves if we are working on them. Note that this is the basically same process that other large open source projects like Firefox, Apache, and OpenOffice.org use.
And a warning for those who want to "escalate" their bug by assigning it to Ed or I: this is a risky strategy. If your bug really is a horrible crashing bug (one of the few types of bugs that meet our defiinition of critical), then you might get lucky and we'll look at it. However, if you escalate a non-critical bug (the fact that the bug annoys you does not make it critical), you can bet that we'll kick it back to "Unconfirmed" and we'll note that so that we can be sure to put your bug at the bottom of our priority list.
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject:
Sorry if I preempted you. I was trying to be supportive and save you a little time.
Quote:
I will meet you have way. If you tell me how the wording in the existing alert box should be changed, I'll edit the existing alert box.
I'm happy to do so. The current text reads:
Quote:
Important: Before filing a bug, get the latest bug fixes by downloading and installing the latest NeoOffice patch installer
I propose to amend it to:
Quote:
Important: Before filing a bug: 1) get the latest bug fixes by downloading and installing the latest NeoOffice patch installer and 2) Read the Bugzilla guide.
Will that stay within the current page guidelines?
Quote:
- OpenOffice.org bug - Any bug should be confirmed to not occur in the equivalent OOo X11 version before it is moved to the "Reproducible but not assigned" state. If the bug occurs in the equivalent OOo version, it should be closed as our scope has not changed and we are not going to fix OOo's bugs.
Yeah, I realized I forgot to add item "d" to my suggested criteria: "establish that it is not an OOo bug." I was coming back to add it to the thread when I found that you had beat me to it.
Thanks for the breakdown on the current status levels and criteria. I found it very helpful. I was going to offer to add it to the wiki, but it looks like Smokey beat me to it.
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- they really don't have to be on a daily basis. )
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