Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:35 am Post subject: what bugs me about installing NeoOffice
Hi,
I just installed NeoOffice and noticed some things that annoy me as a mac user. Mostly because in some ways, NeoOffice behaves like a windows app and not very Mac-like.
- no universal binary
why not? why do user's have to choose between "Intel" and "PowerPC"? Apple introduced the universal for that purpose, to make things simpler
- language packs not integrated
again, users have to choose (which is a big annoyance if you want to get something done). The Mac OS X architecture supports multi-language builds with all that integrated into one bundle. Why doens't NeoOffice make use of this?
- pgk installer instead of .app drag'n'drop
since all files are simply compied into /Applications/NeoOffice.app/, isn't the package somewhat gratuitous? Drag'n'drop is way more intuitive
- installer launches application automatically after install
On a Mac, this is a *very bad* behaviour in my opinion. You might as well install a dock icon or create a startup item (*pukes*).
Sorry for being a whiny mac user, I think it's great that NeoOffice exists and all, but I felt like I had to point out that stuff.
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: Re: what bugs me about installing NeoOffice
Hello there, welcome to the world of Neo...
rudeboy wrote:
- no universal binary
why not? why do user's have to choose between "Intel" and "PowerPC"? Apple introduced the universal for that purpose, to make things simpler
A universal installer package would be over 300Mb. Not many people want to have to downlload a file that big, and since NeoOffice is not a Sun-supported big organisation with an endless supply of bandwidth, it's a practical consideration at both ends. Not many mac users have both ppc and intel, so it's a wise choice, I think.
Quote:
- language packs not integrated
again, users have to choose (which is a big annoyance if you want to get something done). The Mac OS X architecture supports multi-language builds with all that integrated into one bundle. Why doens't NeoOffice make use of this?
For the same reason as above. Incorporating all the language options in NeoOffice (and there are a great many!) would bloat the installer up past 1Gb, and then for most users 90% of the language options would be redundant. This is a time and bandwidth saver. The basic download suits most people, as it has a few major languages in it already, and the individual language packs are only a few Mb each to download - similarly with the dictionaries/hyphenation/thesauri for different languages. Remember that to a large extent, NeoOffice is working in the confines of the OpenOffice code, which was not in any way designed to be compatible with OSX frameworks, so a lot of work has to be done to shoehorn the two together - it's not possible for Neo to use the OSX .lproj framework for that reason.
I'll leave your other questions to the experts!
I understand and appreciate your 'mac advocacy' - it's generally a good thing to encourage mac developers to keep to the highway - but in this case given the hugely complex task of adapting what is essentially a bloody big windows app to run as natively as possible in OSX, I hope you can also appreciate just how good it is already. Probably if you're a new user you haven't seen what a long way NeoOffice has come in the last couple of years - an astonishing feat considering it's essentially the work of a couple of people to make that happen.
I hope all the above doesn't get in the way of your enjoying using the app too much.
1. universal binary
The base code for NeoOffice (OpenOffice.org) uses GCC to compile. There is not enough resources to convert to Apple build xCode that creates Universal Binary. Something like 8 million lines of code....
1.1 Building a Universal Binary would greatly increase the size of the down load. Many people can't download bigger files, and downloading hosts cost time, and MONEY. limited resources.
2. language packs not integrated
This would require dozens of different download, each compiled and tested separately. More time, more Money, more limited resources. This way the user has a choice.
Other projects have tried that - with less success...
3. pgk installer instead of .app drag'n'drop
Due to the multiple user usage of NeoOffice - an installer is the only way to insure proper installation so multiple uses can use Neo on the same Mac. There are more techinical details listed on these forums and wiki.
4. installer launches application automatically after install
and before Neo use to launch a browser to check for updates and such. Now all it does it launch the local application and display a document. For a small project - something was needed to communicate to the user. Someone has problems with whatever is done - this works for most Neo Users.
I'm sorry that a project that as amazing as NeoOffice does not have all the pretty aqua bells-and-whistles.
I would suggest that you spend some time reviewing the history of NeoOffice. You are welcome to contribute 1000's of dollars to work on the tasks you want.
I think Patrick mention that it would cost about $1 million for a technical staff (6), resources (Computers, hosts, and other costs) for a year. Oh - that's in California - darn the cost of living is high there!
Quote:
http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice
The goal of NeoOffice is to provide an entirely free and complete Mac OS X office suite based on the international OpenOffice.org project—only with the look-and-feel you'd expect from any Macintosh application.
The OpenOffice.org project is a LARGE open-source effort to create the ultimate office "suite" including a word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, drawing software, database, and much more. With OpenOffice.org, you can easily import, edit, and exchange files with users of other office programs, such as Microsoft Office or WordPerfect.
While OpenOffice.org is developed primarily for Windows and Unix systems and has a user-interface geared for those operating systems, NeoOffice has made tremendous breakthroughs in offering the same to Macintosh users and making it look just like a Mac application!
It might help if you looked at the NeoWiki:
1. universal binary
The base code for NeoOffice (OpenOffice.org) uses GCC to compile. There is not enough resources to convert to Apple build xCode that creates Universal Binary. Something like 8 million lines of code....
Ok, I appreciate that point.
Quote:
2. language packs not integrated
This would require dozens of different download, each compiled and tested separately.
No. I was talking about _one_ multi-languaged version dowload. Or is this also impossbile due to the way NeoOffice is compiled?
Quote:
3. pgk installer instead of .app drag'n'drop
Due to the multiple user usage of NeoOffice - an installer is the only way to insure proper installation so multiple uses can use Neo on the same Mac. There are more techinical details listed on these forums and wiki.
I don't get it. It's totally common to let the user decide where to drag the application, usually a hint is provided to copy it into the applications folder. It's also possible to put an alias into the .dmg for convenience.
Also, are you (and the deveoplers) aware of Apple's HIG? check this out:
Quote:
You should support drag-and-drop installation if your application bundle contains everything needed for the application to run. However, you might need to create an installation package if any of the following conditions is true:
* You need to install frameworks or other files in specific locations on the user’s system.
* You need to install software on any part of the system that requires administrative access.
I can't see how this is true for NeoOffice
Quote:
4. installer launches application automatically after install
and before Neo use to launch a browser to check for updates and such. Now all it does it launch the local application and display a document. For a small project - something was needed to communicate to the user. Someone has problems with whatever is done - this works for most Neo Users.
I'm too lazy to search the HIG for this topic, but I have _never_ encountered a Mac app that launched itself autmatically after install. This violates the mac "user experience" in a big way if you ask me, especially if you consider Neo's startup time
Joined: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 291 Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:38 am Post subject:
rudeboy wrote:
I don't get it. It's totally common to let the user decide where to drag the application, usually a hint is provided to copy it into the applications folder. It's also possible to put an alias into the .dmg for convenience.
Also, are you (and the deveoplers) aware of Apple's HIG? check this out:
Quote:
However, you might need to create an installation package if any of the following conditions is true:
* You need to install software on any part of the system that requires administrative access.
I can't see how this is true for NeoOffice
Then you didn't understand the previous posts. Administrative access is needed, check out the post-install script & wonder, why you have to type in your admin password during installation.
And about it being "common": Did you ever install Mac OS X, iLife, iWork, MS Office, Adobe Photoshop, something from Macromedia (now Adobe, I know)?
rudeboy wrote:
Quote:
4. installer launches application automatically after install
and before Neo use to launch a browser to check for updates and such. Now all it does it launch the local application and display a document. For a small project - something was needed to communicate to the user. Someone has problems with whatever is done - this works for most Neo Users.
I'm too lazy to search the HIG for this topic, but I have _never_ encountered a Mac app that launched itself autmatically after install. This violates the mac "user experience" in a big way ...
You aren't serious, are you? In my opinion, not reminding users of bugfixes and updates will result in a much worse experience.
This violates the mac "user experience" in a big way if you ask me, especially if you consider Neo's startup time
I think it's reasonable to assume that at least 50% of the time, the first thing someone does after installing a new app is to launch it - as that's the reason they installed it, innit? So they're going to have to have the Neo Startup Time Experience sooner or later anyway to see if it went okay and to try out the app. It seems to me it's the surprise that's potentially annoying, rather than the launching per se.
Mmm, and I have to say I think the word 'violates' is a bit over-emotive for the situation.
The NeoOffice installer does something you're not used to installers doing and your subjective response is that it annoys you. Fair enough, that's useful feedback as far as it goes. But I feel that you're dressing this up as an objective 'matter of principle' when it isn't. I've got no argument with you stating the effect it had on you, but the 'as a mac-user' part made me feel as if you somehow feel your reponse is representative of mac users, and I found myself bridling a little at that. Anyway...
I myself was taken aback the first time I saw the app start itself before the installation ended, as it didn't used to do that before v2.1, but it didn't annoy me, my response was "Oh, good - a successful installation." And as you say, it's better than opening a browser window - this is why they've made the change. Not everyone who downloads and installs the app realises without prompting that there's a patch update system, and where to go to get these updates. I see this installation behaviour as a useful service that will inevitably annoy some folk, and I hope the usefullness of the info outweighs the annoyance factor in the end.
It would perhaps be better if the app could be made to open the info page the first time it's launched after installation, but that might be a lot harder to implement than the 'during installation' way of going about it. given the limited resources of the developers, I'm glad for them to spend more time on bug-free software than on business class installation with complimentary champagne, kind of thing.
http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice
The goal of NeoOffice is to provide an entirely free and complete Mac OS X office suite based on the international OpenOffice.org project—only with the look-and-feel you'd expect from any Macintosh application.
The OpenOffice.org project is a LARGE open-source effort to create the ultimate office "suite" including a word processor, spreadsheet, presentation, drawing software, database, and much more. With OpenOffice.org, you can easily import, edit, and exchange files with users of other office programs, such as Microsoft Office or WordPerfect.
While OpenOffice.org is developed primarily for Windows and Unix systems and has a user-interface geared for those operating systems, NeoOffice has made tremendous breakthroughs in offering the same to Macintosh users and making it look just like a Mac application!
NeoOffice is what it is. Warts and all.
Philip ( It's free, Akua, and MS free! )
As mentioned above
NeoOffice is not a native/written-for-MacOSX application.
I agree that it does not follow Apple's HIG and that is a pity. It probably NEVER will.
That is NOT what the NeoOffice project is about. See quotes above.
The Neo Developers have done some amazing things are much more aware of the Apple Programing environment than most of us will Every be. Please check out the programming history of Neo and it's main developers.
Tis better to research NeoOffice History further before proposing Great changes. Much of this has been discussed - over and over again.
Oh, and for "2. language packs not integrated "
- Yoxi mentioned that a application with 57+ different language packs could be over 1,000 MBs. I would never download something that large, or near that large. 145 MB is already considered a huge download.
- and possibly yes - it would be harder to do due to Neo base code design.
Philip ( My momma said: "Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt." )
\. hasn't worked for me ... yet!
<edit to update language pack numbers - it really would be greater than 1 GB!
\\ so I guess what "they" say it ... true - Size matters? >
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject:
LemonAid wrote:
Oh, and for "2. language packs not integrated "
- Yoxi mentioned that a application with 57+ different language packs could be over 1,000 MBs.
To put a number on this for you, a "universal" version with all language packs would clock in at a nice 1.4 Gigabytes. That's fine if you're a commercial app and can distribute on DVD, but is a totally ludicrous download size for the vast majority of people on broadband, much less on dialup. This is not one of our priorities and will not be for some time to come.
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Please check out the programming history of Neo and it's main developers.
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