Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Vowel points in hebrew
hello,
i am a new user in Neo and apple in general and i just transferred a WORD document written in hebrew with some vowel points (marked under the letters). i encountered two problems when doing that:
1) when viewing the document - between each letter and the next one a blank space has been created - so i get letter-space-letter-space etc
2) assuming there is a problem transferring a ready-made hebrew doc with vowel points from word to neo i started fixing it manually - deleting the vowel points one by one and replacing them locally in the neo - this space issue is solved but a new thing arises - the spacing of the lines changes - above and below the specific line i am inserting vowel points into. i can understand that the vowel points require some more space but it doesn't appear nice visually in the document.
any idea regarding those issues ?
is there an option to create a short-cut key for inserting special characters ? (sorry for comparing it again to WORD but this is what i am used to so far and it exists there and make life much easier when inserting the same special character again and again).
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject:
Asher,
Welcome to NeoOffice and the forums at trinity!
Concerning your first issue, I don't have any immediate answers, but some questions that might (or might not) help us find them.:
what font are you using for Hebrew? Is it Unicode or a "legacy" font (i.e. a non-Unicode Hebrew-only font)
Is there someplace you could make a sample file available for download so we could take a look at it?
Any chance that this is related to the fact that there is more than version of a given vowel point in many Hebrew fonts? Many of the better fonts include vowel points designed for different width/height consonants. (My apologies if I am repeating what you already know).
I don't know anything about how Word handles Hebrew, and I've not done much with Hebrew in Neo besides type a couple of words and paste some verses in from Accordance. I'm familiar with Biblical Hebrew, but don't know anything about modern Hebrew.
In terms of your second question (about short-cut keys) I do have a solution. If you want to assign a particular character (e.g. a patach) a shortcut, the solution is to record a macro and assign a short-cut key to the macro. If you click on the Neowiki link in the "Other Websites" box on the left, and type "Using Macros" into the search box, you should be able to find a brief article that includes directions for recording macros. I'm a bit rushed tonight or I would look it up and give you the direct link.
If you want to use a short-cut key to pull up the Insert special characters dialog, you go to Tools>Customize, and click on the Keboard Tab. Then find the command you want to assign a short cut key to and choose the desired key.
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:22 am Post subject:
Asher e-mailed me a sample document, and I've played with it a little bit today.
There are two issues with vowel points and spacing in Hebrew:
Adding/changing a vowel point using Insert>Special character results in the vowel point being placed under the letter offset from its standard position. (in most cases, the vowel point should be centered under the consonental character, but in my trials the vowel point is shifted to the right)
Adding/changing a vowel point using Isert>Special character changes the spacing between the line in which it occurs and the following line.
Here is what I have found:
Using the Character Pallette under Apple's Input Menu (The flag "menulet"), the vowel points enter correctly, without spacing problems unless I use it to enter a vowel point at a location where I had previously used Insert>Special Character.
Changing the font of the entire line corrects the issue.
If one selects the consonant and vowel point involved, the font name disappears from the font dropdown in the toolbar. Resetting the font corrects the issue.
My conclusions:
Insert>Special character inserts a character in a different font than what is currently in the document.
Work arounds include using Apple's Character Pallette or selecting the line and resetting the text.
I've not tested this extensively, so let me know if these fixes don't work consistently, and I'll try to investigate further.
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:53 am Post subject:
Thanks for the bug link. I read through it, and there are similarities.
There do appear to be some differences, though, if I am understanding the bug report correctly:
Selecting the affected text and resetting the font to the "original" font (that is the font of the consonental text before inserting a vowel point) fixes the spacing problem. Unless I am reading something wrong, this does not appear to be the case with bug 1199.
I had intended to check the effect in Text Edit, but since using Apple's Input menu to input the vowels seems to work properly, I'm not sure how to test it in another application. (I can only replicate the issue using Neo's Insert>Special Characters... dialog).
My conclusions:
[list]Insert>Special character inserts a character in a different font than what is currently in the document.
You can actually choose the font to use in that window (although as I recall it was annoyingly complex).
I much prefer Character Palette (or even the appropriate keyboard layout; I assume the Hebrew layout includes ways to enter the vowels)--Character Palette inserts the character in your current font by default, if possible. (You can choose another font by expanding the Font Variation section and see all the installed fonts that have that character, and then double-click.)
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Jun 20, 2006 Posts: 2051 Location: Midwest, USA
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject:
sardisson wrote:
Lorinda wrote:
My conclusions:
Insert>Special character inserts a character in a different font than what is currently in the document.
You can actually choose the font to use in that window (although as I recall it was annoyingly complex).
There is a font drop down, but even with that set to the same font (Times New Roman in this case) the spacing issue happens. If you highlight the consonant (under which the vowel is placed) after the insertion, it shows up as no font in the font drop down of the tool bar, even though the font was set in the Insert>Special Characters... window. Reset the font to Times New Roman, and all is well.
....
I just played a little more, and discovered that even in areas where I hadn't tampered with the vowels, some characters are set to "no" font. If I took a line of text (the sample is several lines of the same sentence), and set the entire line to Times New Roman, then used Insert>Special Characters..., I did not have any spacing issues.
I also discovered (which I sort of knew already) that if I set it to a font that does not actually contain Hebrew glyphs, Neo will subsitute another font that does, but it won't tell you that it has done so. The font drop down will still contain the name of the font you chose, but something else is being used for the Hebrew glyphs. Whenever possible, it is probably a good idea to make sure that you are using a font that includes Hebrew glyphs. (Use Fontbook to determine this).
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