Joined: Apr 25, 2006 Posts: 2315 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:50 am Post subject:
OPENSTEP wrote:
On its own from a user's perspective, I don't really see that much that warrants paying for 10.5.
Many will upgrade to use the latest version of Boot Camp. The other features may not be worth it alone, but overall they seem to make Leopard a more refined OS.
OPENSTEP wrote:
From an engineering perspective, however, it really is full of lots of great "enabling" technologies and APIs that can really allow for some amazing programs to be written.
That's another major reason to upgrade: take advantage of all this new cool stuff that's available in third-party apps, but only under Leopard…
Joined: Dec 08, 2005 Posts: 291 Location: Berlin, Germany
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:51 am Post subject:
OPENSTEP wrote:
From an engineering perspective, however, it really is full of lots of great "enabling" technologies and APIs that can really allow for some amazing programs to be written.
Which will run on Leopard only and finally get users to upgrade, I guess.
Edit: ... as Samwise wrote roughly at the same time ...
Last edited by doctype on Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Needless to say, we're still going to be adding features to take advantage of 10.5, but we'll still be supporting 10.4 (of course) and 10.3 (though we're encountering more and more errors unique to gcc 3.3 and 10.3 lately).
Ed is correct about the gcc 3.3 issues (gcc 3.3 is needed in order to support Mac OS X 10.3.9). Fortunately, as long as we continue to use the OOo 2.2.1 code (and we will for our next release), we will continue to support 10.3.9.
After that (probably mid-2008), we will to reassess 10.3.9 support.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 am Post subject:
Samwise wrote:
OPENSTEP wrote:
On its own from a user's perspective, I don't really see that much that warrants paying for 10.5.
Many will upgrade to use the latest version of Boot Camp. The other features may not be worth it alone, but overall they seem to make Leopard a more refined OS.
OK, yup, I can see that as I recall they explicitly expired the betas. Kinda sneaky Being a PowerPC devotee until the end, I have no use for such things. Remember: little endian makes the baby jesus cry.
OK, yup, I can see that as I recall they explicitly expired the betas. Kinda sneaky
I set up a Parallels Desktop installation for someone and that also works pretty well (though I haven't tried to set up any games on it). Cheaper and more convenient than a boot camp upgrade.
-Oscar _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
Right now all I have to do to do that will most files and apps is drag the file to the app icon on the dock and release. Pressing the space bar sounds like more work.
Doesn't affect Neo much for my workflow, but there are several apps where I'm accustomed to drag and release.
Lorinda
Good news for you, Lorinda. Leopard behaves like Tiger, just hover a file over Neo's icon in the dock, and that launchs Neo which opens the file.
Leopard seems faster than Tiger. First impression, of course.
I don't like very much the transparence of the menu bar. But Time Machine is impressive!
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:59 am Post subject:
Yay! It's Friday, the end of the NDA!
Yes, on machines with multiple CPUs or multiple cores, Leopard definitely feels a bit faster to me. Over the times I've been playing with Leopard, I've noticed that the Neo launch times have steadily decreased from the time when it was first compatible Spotlight indexing is also much faster (FSEvents perhaps?). The early previews seemed snappy even on my old TiBook 400, where switching spaces was very quick.
Java 1.4 AWT on Leopard is broken and resizing a window leads to a crash. There are no plans for this to be fixed. I don't know if Java 1.4 was pulled from the final version, but we've restricted Neo to using only Java 1.5 on Leopard IIRC. Anyway, if there's anything dependent on Java 1.4 AWT that can't run on 1.5, better keep a Tiger boot volume handy.
Spaces sometimes throws a little bit of a fit with Neo particularly if you have multiple windows from the application visible in multiple spaces. Sometimes it may switch to the wrong space to display the dialog. This went away for me if you keep all of Neo's windows in an individual space. Again, it's a spaces issue, nothing that we can do to address it.
XCode 3 is definitely much faster when opening and dealing with large source code files. Compilation speed feels about the same to me.
Some bonehead got rid of gcc_select for shfiting the command line version of the gcc compiler on Leopard, or otherwise has hidden it somewhere else. Apparently their development tools team thinks that everyone should use XCode. As a result, PowerPC and PowerPC extensions cannot be built on Leopard but must be built on 10.4 where the command line tools can be flipped back to gcc 3.3. This has been particularly annoying to me when working on the grammar checker as it's a 10.5 feature, but to make a fix or tweak I need to reboot the machine back to 10.4, reboot into 10.5 to test, reboot back into 10.4 to recompile, etc.
Classic, sniff. I still use Classic nearly every day for older development tools like MPW and, gasp, when I need it, Metrowerks Visual SourceSafe. Not for Neo, but for my real job.
The Finder does not seem to lock as much when using networked volumes. Very welcome, especially when accessing FTP servers through the Finder.
If you're a command line junkie, go play with Terminal...it's much nicer, though I don't know if the Matrix inspired icon made final
To Do? Meh.
There are a lot of wonderful APIs in there for accessing Photo Booth, Core Image, and other user interfaces from Cocoa applications with a minimal amount of code. The new APIs are really where the update shines and I bet you'll see some nifty apps and features coming from them. It's nice having APIs to detect online presence and interact with iChat from other applications. That will probably lead to some nifty utilities. I hope to get a chance to use them at some point in Neo.
The temporary files used by Neo should work in Time Machine and not be cached as they are in the standard system locations. I'm not sure about some of the caches the application generates in Library/Preferences. I've never had Time Machine turned on for any of my machines so have not been able to explore this behaviour. If anyone notices any issues or ballooning backups, please bring it to our attention.
I have enjoyed finally having tabbed chats and the other basic improvements in the new iChat, but have not had a chance to play with any of the video processing frufrus as I believe they were restricted to Intel machines only. Not had a chance to play with iChat theater.
In 10.5 Apple has built-in support for OpenDocument text files in TextEdit (no big surprise) but also provides OpenDocument Spotlight indexing and QuickView support with the operating system as well. The operating system can index and QuickLook ODT files without ever having installed Neo. Of course, they have limitations. Embedded objects within text files do not always appear (e.g. formulas, text frames, embedded spreadsheets, etc.) and the layout of tables or more advanced features are not 100% accurate. What the NeoPeek QuickLook plugin does is to search the file to check if it has our embedded PDF extensions. If it does, we display the PDF to the user. This is nice and scalable and is typographically accurate as to what you would see on the printed page. If the file does not have our extension, we then fall back on the system-provided filters for ODT files. If all else fails, we try to pick out some other information to apprxoimate a preview.
Spotlight indexing of ODT files is now performed by the operating system filter and not our own Spotlight filter. This may result in slightly different search results from Spotlight compared to 10.4, but I'm sure that they do a better job then myself and have a mroe optimized key mapping.
There still is no way to resolve conflicts when multiple QuickLook or Spotlight plugins claim to handle the same file types. Spotlight seems to prefer the Apple-supplied importer over the application provider's, QuickLook seems to prefer the application provider's generator over Apple's (which is what allows our fallback QL mechanism to work). These are still, of course, undocumented, and I hope that their behaviour doesn't change.
I personally find the blue dot for indicating the active application much more difficult to see in the Dock than the black triangle.
The changes to Installer.app are too clever and have been a PITA for us and probably will be a drag for other developers as well. Installer.app really shouldn't be deleting files off of a computer unless the installer developer explicitly says to remove them. Seems like a step backward to me.
I have not had a chance to explore Leopard Server, but the presentations seem to indicate that it's becoming an intriguing easy way to set up a collaboration environment for small offices.
Watch out when you're installing : the print drivers take up a *lot* of room now off of the DVD. By choosing only the print drivers you know you'll need, you can probably save a gig or two of hard drive space.
Grammar checking is English only and it's not stellar, but it does catch simple mistakes and, being used throughout the OS and (I assume) iWork, I'm sure it'll only improve with time.
I have not had a chance to explore Leopard Server, but the presentations seem to indicate that it's becoming an intriguing easy way to set up a collaboration environment for small offices.
I agree. I've held that view since the first LS preview pages were posted on Apple's site. I'll certainly be considering it for a more open standards driven future.
OPENSTEP wrote:
Watch out when you're installing : the print drivers take up a *lot* of room now off of the DVD. By choosing only the print drivers you know you'll need, you can probably save a gig or two of hard drive space.
Thanks for the tip. It's amazing how much space that lot take up. Rocket science to have the option to select which printers you have during the installation? Rather than having to de-select those you don't need (typically 99.9% of them). _________________ Ray Saunders
World Scout Bureau
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:59 am Post subject:
rays wrote:
OPENSTEP wrote:
Watch out when you're installing : the print drivers take up a *lot* of room now off of the DVD. By choosing only the print drivers you know you'll need, you can probably save a gig or two of hard drive space.
Thanks for the tip. It's amazing how much space that lot take up. Rocket science to have the option to select which printers you have during the installation? Rather than having to de-select those you don't need (typically 99.9% of them).
Yes, it's also been a bit hidden as it's in the "Customize" area in the installer after choosing the destination disk as in the past. I think the retail installer will follow the same routine.
I don't think that Tiger retail was ever Universal, so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the problem is not only that there are more printers but also that they're installing universal binary drivers. I can see how it's a nice usability feature to allow any printer to work out of the box, but in some of the seeds the print drivers actually took up more space than the kernel and core operating system on disk!
I usually just took the ones for the printers I've owned and then just put the gimp-print set on my laptop since that should cover most printers if I needed one in a pinch.
I also really like the new context-highlighting find in Safari. Hopefully Safari 3 will be available for Tiger
Joined: Apr 25, 2006 Posts: 2315 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject:
MacRat wrote:
OPENSTEP wrote:
I don't think that Tiger retail was ever Universal
No, the DVD was never universal, but after an install has done all of it's Software Updates, it can boot universal.
IIRC this is only possible with 10.4 Server. I don't think the regular Tiger has ever been able to boot both PPC and Intel Macs (and Intel Macs also require GUID vs. APM for PowerPC Macs).
IIRC this is only possible with 10.4 Server. I don't think the regular Tiger has ever been able to boot both PPC and Intel Macs (and Intel Macs also require GUID vs. APM for PowerPC Macs).
Crap. You are correct. They changed this in the GM version.
With the WWDC beta, I installed Leopard on an external firewire HD via my Mac Pro and then used the same firewire HD to boot a PowerMac G4.
This will be a pain as now I will have to keep a PPC bootable drive and an Intel bootable drive going forward.
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Being a PowerPC devotee until the end, I have no use for such things. Remember: little endian makes the baby jesus cry.
