Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Maceió/AL Brazil
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:06 am Post subject: At last: is OOo for Mac able to accentuate or not?
This posting is intented to be of interest of any non-English native speaker who needs to accentuate words.
Since I first tried OOo for Mac (1.0.3) I haven't been able to get it to accentuate. For example, for the word "açúcar" ("sugar" in Portuguese) OOo produces "a'c'ucar".
I hoped to see that issue fixed on OOo 1.1.2 but it's not, unfortunately.
The point is that I don't know whether or not it's an issue related to OOo itself or to X11. Evidences point to be really an OOo issue because the use with another X window system resulted in the same accentuation problem.
Unfortunately, this is a very complex issue that involves not only OOo and the various X11 implementations but also the OS version and settings. (I don't think the developers have a good idea yet of what is causing the problem, so the more data, the better....)
For instance, I am running OOo 1.1.2 Final, Apple X11 1.0, OS X 10.3.4 English/US. I switched my system language to Brazilian Portugese, my locale to Brasil, my keyboard layout to Brazilian, launched X11 and OOo, opened the keyboard viewer (and incidentally didn't see any obvious differences from the US English layout) and typed "açúar" (a opt-c opt-e,u a r) with no problems.
(My X11 Input prefs are also have "Follow system keyboard layout" checked; I'm not sure if that makes any difference, and I also think it might be the default setting.)
If we are both running the same version of OOo and X11, then there is something else in play
What versions of OOo, X11, and OS X are you using? What is the native/default language of your OS X? What is your locale (System Preferences> International> Formats: Region) and keyboard layout?
Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Maceió/AL Brazil
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:12 am Post subject:
sardisson wrote:
Hi Marcelo,
Unfortunately, this is a very complex issue that involves not only OOo and the various X11 implementations but also the OS version and settings. (I don't think the developers have a good idea yet of what is causing the problem, so the more data, the better....)
Well may my non-English user experience contribute a little.
sardisson wrote:
For instance, I am running OOo 1.1.2 Final, Apple X11 1.0, OS X 10.3.4 English/US. I switched my system language to Brazilian Portugese, my locale to Brasil, my keyboard layout to Brazilian, launched X11 and OOo, opened the keyboard viewer (and incidentally didn't see any obvious differences from the US English layout) and typed "açúar" (a opt-c opt-e,u a r) with no problems.
Shame on me!
Due to the fact that I haven't ever used that key combination to produce accentuated characters while on a Mac OS environment I completely forgot that possibility. Here in Brazil we very commonly use a keyboard layout that makes Mac keyboards behave like on a Windows machine to produce accents - that is, producing "á" is as simple as typing ' + a. See this (in English):
The Option key combination feature on OOo doesn't solve the problem entirely. Please open your OOo, go to OOo help, click on "accents:inserting" and have a good reading on that topic, specially under the paragraph "At present there are three ways of entering letters with accents directly from the keyboard."
Note that the nerds who wrote those instructions probably thought that OOo would be used by nerds like them. Understanding and following those instructions is just beyond my expertise.
However, I found out that there's an accent key on my keyboard -- the one with ` and ~, above the tab key -- that works just fine to produce, for example, à and ã, that is, it's just necessary to type ` + a and ~ + a to produce them, dismissing the Option key. That's the way it works on a Windows environment and how the US International keyboard layout (see link above) makes your keyboard behave on Macs.
In OOo case, seems like it expects the keyboard to have exclusive accent keys, like the one above the Tab key, in order to work like described on the help file.
sardisson wrote:
What versions of OOo, X11, and OS X are you using? What is the native/default language of your OS X? What is your locale (System Preferences> International> Formats: Region) and keyboard layout?
Let's see:
OOs 1.1.2
OS X 10.3.4
X11 1.0 - XFree86 4.3.0
OS X Brazilian Portuguese native by my option at install
Formats: Brazil
Keyboard layout: US International
Thank you for your kind attention. Hope developers are reading this.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: At last: is OOo for Mac able to accentuate or not?
This is where using NeoOffice/J helps - as it uses the native MacOS text input, you can type accents using the standard MacOS key commands (e.g. alt-u to get an umlaut, etc) and it just works. Currently, the only disadvantage to NO/J is that it is based on OOo 1.0.3 and hasn't yet been updated to the 1.1.x code base (something that Patrick Luby is working on, I believe). So, if you have been getting on fine with OOo 1.0.3 and don't need any of the new features/bug fixes in OOo 1.1.2, then try out NO/J. _________________ PBG4, 1.5GHz, SuperDrive, 1GB RAM, 128MB VRAM, 5400rpm 80GB HD, MacOS X 10.4.5
Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Maceió/AL Brazil
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:36 am Post subject: Re: At last: is OOo for Mac able to accentuate or not?
JKT wrote:
This is where using NeoOffice/J helps - as it uses the native MacOS text input, you can type accents using the standard MacOS key commands (e.g. alt-u to get an umlaut, etc) and it just works. Currently, the only disadvantage to NO/J is that it is based on OOo 1.0.3 and hasn't yet been updated to the 1.1.x code base (something that Patrick Luby is working on, I believe). So, if you have been getting on fine with OOo 1.0.3 and don't need any of the new features/bug fixes in OOo 1.1.2, then try out NO/J.
Thank you for your informations about NO/J, which, to be honest, I don't know yet.
As you may have noticed from my previous post, typing accents using key combinations is not the issue so as is the discrepancy between the unintelligible help text and what we really get from the keyboard.
For example, there's a really easy way to type, for example, "à " (just like on a Windows PC) but the same simplicity is not true for "á". Why?
In case you are somehow linked to the OOo development work please register my concern about the accentuation problem for non-English native users of OOo for Mac as I describe on my previous post.
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:28 pm Post subject: Typing in Portuguese
I also do a lot of typing in Portuguese and since my switch to the Mac my speed has been nearly but in half. The combinations are particularly bad for Portuguese because of things like "ção" Maybe Apple chose the key combinations for French and Spanish, for example ˜ is on the n, the most common Spanish combination.
And to make matters worse, if you mistype and select the apple key instead of the option key, it opens a new document.
Anyways, if you do come up with a way to get your alternative to work on OOo, please post it here.
First, as JKT mentions, give NeoJ a whirl. Despite ostensibly being a "development project," it's definitely stable enough for daily use and has much better integration with the OS. Things, including non-standard keyboard layouts, just work, in part because of Apple making Java a better citizen under OS X and without a doubt because of Patrick Luby's hard work smashing bugs and working around things and assorted programming genius
Second, Windows finally has developed a more user-friendly way to type accented characters than using the Character Map or Alt+four numbers key combos!? About time (sorry, had to do that one )
Third, you're right, that Help documentation is cryptic. However, all that Unix gobbledy-gook (or at least the first and third methods) essentially describe the (20-year-old?) standard Mac option-<"accent">, letter method of composing accents. Given the limited number of folks actually doing the Mac port, I'd guess no one has had the time to pour through the Help files and add or correct Mac-specific content....
Todaro wrote:
For example, there's a really easy way to type, for example, "à " (just like on a Windows PC) but the same simplicity is not true for "á". Why?
(referring to the US-International layout....) I don't know, and as far as I know, the developers haven't figured it out, either. There's some strange interaction between the OS locale/language and X11 and what charsets/encodings and keystrokes are allowed. In this case, somewhere the '/" key has been forbidden from acting as a dead key....
It's not just OOo, though; X11 really does play a big part. If you're interested in some of the gritty details, this post of mine from the beta testing looks into the issue more fully (note that the build(s) of OOo discussed in that thread are old and a number of the accent composition problems were fixed in 1.1.2 Final). However, the persistance of some of these items is why the Readme documents issues with dead keys not working properly in some keyboard layouts.
All of this is quite frustrating, indeed Eventually, when OOo "proper" is decoupled from X11, this should all be a thing of the past, and luckily, Patrick has made NeoJ the superb alternative in the interim.
Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Maceió/AL Brazil
Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:00 am Post subject:
Sardisson,
I do really appreciate your comments. Thank you.
sardisson wrote:
First, as JKT mentions, give NeoJ a whirl.
Yes, I will fairly soon.
sardisson wrote:
Second, Windows finally has developed a more user-friendly way to type accented characters than using the Character Map or Alt+four numbers key combos!? About time (sorry, had to do that one )
Well I'm not sure of how much involved you are with the non-English native Wintel world but they've done a really good job on turning typing accents a really easy task. And that's not new. My introduction to the computer world was in 1987 on a pre-286 PC running DOS on 5 1/4" floppies and Borland's WordStar for texts. Even by that time WordStar had got its own easy accentuation scheme similar to today's Windows solution.
I can't remember having any trouble with accents on PCs ever. Unfortunately the same is not true on Macs. Since Mac OS Classic I always needed a third-party solution to solve the accentuation problem.
sardisson wrote:
Third, you're right, that Help documentation is cryptic. However, all that Unix gobbledy-gook (or at least the first and third methods) essentially describe the (20-year-old?) standard Mac option-<"accent">, letter method of composing accents. Given the limited number of folks actually doing the Mac port, I'd guess no one has had the time to pour through the Help files and add or correct Mac-specific content....
That's OK, as long as we're able to get help on forums like this.
Again, thank you for your comments. Very appropriate.
Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Maceió/AL Brazil
Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Typing in Portuguese
guest wrote:
I also do a lot of typing in Portuguese and since my switch to the Mac my speed has been nearly but in half. The combinations are particularly bad for Portuguese because of things like "ção" Maybe Apple chose the key combinations for French and Spanish, for example ˜ is on the n, the most common Spanish combination.
Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 434 Location: London, UK
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Typing in Portuguese
guest wrote:
I also do a lot of typing in Portuguese and since my switch to the Mac my speed has been nearly but in half. The combinations are particularly bad for Portuguese because of things like "ção" Maybe Apple chose the key combinations for French and Spanish, for example ˜ is on the n, the most common Spanish combination.
And to make matters worse, if you mistype and select the apple key instead of the option key, it opens a new document.
Anyways, if you do come up with a way to get your alternative to work on OOo, please post it here.
Have you tried using the Portuguese input instead (activated via System Preferences>International>Input Method)?
Looking at Keyboard Viewer shows you what keys to press to get the various symbols and idiomatic letters:
Those highlighted by a white border are modifier keys that place the indicated accent on the next letter pressed (assuming it can accept that accent). If you use NO/J this works natively:
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(I don't think the developers have a good idea yet of what is causing the problem, so the more data, the better....)
(sorry, had to do that one 
)
