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NeoOffice :: View topic - Master documents and page layout in neoOffice 3
Master documents and page layout in neoOffice 3
 
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iMac
Red Pill


Joined: Mar 25, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:00 pm    Post subject: Master documents and page layout in neoOffice 3

Since version 3 is about to become public, I'm asking these questions on this forum, since readers here are familiar with version 3, and maybe the answers to my question will be different than for version 2. I am not a current user of NeoOffice, so if I start it will be with version 3.

Also, I should mention that I have a free copy of MS Office 2008 through my employer, so if I adopt NeoOffice, it will be to obtain specific reliable functions, not to save money. I'm therefore asking very specific questions about the functioning of a couple of features of NeoOffice 3.

I'm writing a textbook with lots of large graphics files and maybe 20 chapters and appendices; many of these individual chapter files are very large in Word 2008, and the whole thing together will be immense. I want to be able to do minor page layout functions (Word's functions are okay) so that I can quickly distribute copies to my students or to colleagues for feedback, but I also want to be able to paginate and create indexes and a table of contents across the entire book.

Lots of websites are devoted to all the many problems Master Documents cause in MSWord, and Word 2008 has abandoned any mention of this feature. (I guess that's MS's strategy: you don't fix an unreliable feature, you just hope people won't notice that you've swept it under the rug.)

My first question: is the Master Document function robust and trouble-free in NeoOffice 3?

I use text boxes for figures, since they permit both the image and the caption to be located together with a box around them. In Word (04 and now 08 ), text boxes are endlessly frustrating: even if you set no overlap and unlock them from the accompanying text, if there are several on a page, they skip and jump all over the place if you move one, and often they will not stay in the location you drag them to.

Apple's Pages 08 (now 09) does not have indexing or master documents, so it is out of the running for my book. However, I discovered after converting one of my chapters to Pages that the text boxes behave exactly as you want them to, and cause no jumping or skipping around.

My second question: In NeoOffice 3, are text boxes well-behaved like in Pages 08, or do they hop around frustratingly as in Word 08? Is there anything else I need to know about page layout in NeoOffice 3?

Thank you for your help. Smile

Ian (iMac)
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:39 pm    Post subject:

In general, NeoOffice (whether it is version 2.2.5 or 3.0) is not a full replacement for Microsoft Office. While NeoOffice and its underlying OpenOffice.org code emulate many of Microsoft Office's features and can open most (but not all) Microsoft Office documents, both Ed and I really consider NeoOffice to be equivalent to "second-tier" office suite applications like Microsoft Works and the old AppleWorks.

Given the above plus the period support problems that our users have posted over the last few years, I think that most likely you are going to find NeoOffice no better (and maybe flakier) than Microsoft Word for writing a book.

If you are looking for an application that handles bookwriting better than Microsoft Office, you may want to look Adobe FrameMaker. I only know a few people that write books for a living, but all have told me that they find FrameMaker much more suited to their work than Microsoft Word. Of course, FrameMaker is not cheap but maybe you might be able to justify that extra cost if it saves you substantial time and hassle.

Patrick
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iMac
Red Pill


Joined: Mar 25, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject:

Thank you for your candid reply, Patrick, and for your suggestions.

Framemaker is really out of my league, cost-wise. And during creative work sessions, I don't want to be distracted by the interface, which is why I'm hesitating to use InDesign (which I own). I want to work on writing without distraction, and want to be able to quickly make current chapters available to my students in whatever form they exist at that moment, but preferably with an index. Indexing and a table of contents would also help with the creative process, since they would reveal where there are repetitions or omissions -- the work is massive enough that it is hard to keep track. The only problem with my current use of Word -- that is, having separate chapter documents -- is the matter of an index and pagination, otherwise Word is adequate: the presence of a free equation editor compensates in part for such crappy text box behavior. But with all the warnings on the web about everything that can go wrong with master documents (to say nothing of the fact that I would have to do that part on a PC that I don't own, since it is dropped from Word 08 ), I'm hesitant to take that step with Word.

Any further suggestions from you, Patrick, or other forum participants, would be much appreciated. Also, if NeoOffice is not my solution, can anyone suggest an appropriate forum for my query?

many thanks,
Ian
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject:

I used a master document long ago (in the Neo 1.2 age), and found it to be quite straightforward. You need to read the help text on it, but it didn't give me any problems then.

It probably has its fair share of quirks, but in general I find arcane features of NeoOffice to be more logical than arcane features of Word.

In any case, you could always work on the book in a master document and then put it all in a big file when the thing is done. If you use the same template for each of the subfiles, that should be fine.

Best wishes,
Oscar

_________________
"What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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Jim
Councilperson


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Selmer, Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject:

I use Neo for 40-150 page appraisal reports. I don't use Master Documents, though. I tried it with an earlier version, and had no end of problems that I never got around to solving.

However, the text boxes you refer to are called "Frames" in Neo. (Neo has something called "text boxes" too, but they behave differently.) Frames can be anchored to the pages, or paragraphs anywhere on the page including headers or footers. They stay put, unless you go back and forth between Word format and ODT format.

Indices and Tables of Contents work great, as do cross-references. But cross-referencing between subdocuments is quite strange. Although it can be done, it's not straightforward. And Auto-Text can be a big help. You can put almost anything into an auto-text entry.

Autocorrect and autocomplete give various people fits, and others can't live without them. You can turn those off if you don't like them. In fact, Neo is one of the most customizable programs available.

Neo offers the additional advantage of having a built-in vector drawing module which comes in handy for illustrations.

I haven't used the Bibliography portion, but everybody gripes about how inadequate it is for academic work. There are workarounds, though.

In summary, Neo has its quirks and problems. So does Word. But when Word has a problem, you can't write Patrick to fix it. Using Neo, if a new patch causes significant problems, Patrick has fixed it in as little as 90 minutes. Microsoft can't get around to telling you that you're on your own for three days. (I think Patrick's characterization of Neo as comparing more with Works than with Word is too self-deprecating. Neo's a good product.)

While you're waiting for the release of 3.0, read through the Wiki and the User's Guide and the tutorials on Master Docs. You'll need a head start on those; they're pretty complex. Also look over the User's Guide chapter on styles; they're the main paradigm in Neo and OOo. If you do that, then when Neo 3 is released, you'll be able to jump right in and construct your chapter templates and your Master Doc.

_________________
Jim Plante
MacOS X 10.6.34, MacBook 2GHz C2Duo, 2gb, Neo 3.1.1 p 1
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Lorinda
Captain Mifune


Joined: Jun 20, 2006
Posts: 2051
Location: Midwest, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject:

Just to follow up, the primary wiki article on Master documents can be found here.. There are two other articles, one about Page Styles and Master documents (an essential read if doing master documents!) and one on cross references. Links to those can be found in the "Related Articles" section of the primary Master Document page.

The instructions there date back to NeoOffice 1.2, although it looks like they were updated for 2.x. If you pursue using NeoOffice this way, please let us know if there are problems with the wiki articles and we will try to get them fixed.

Lorinda
friendly wiki elf
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OPENSTEP
The One
The One


Joined: May 25, 2003
Posts: 4752
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject:

You may also want to check if InDesign has any workflow features. I remember FrameMaker had provisions where content could be imported into the layout from Word or other documents. I'd edit in Word (or whatnot) then import changes into the layout and styles in Frame and reindex and regenerate PDFs. It didn't work perfectly, but sometimes it was nicer than editing directly in Frame. I don't know if InDesign allows you to do something like that, but it might let you do content at least in a comfortable environment.

ed
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Jim
Councilperson


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 173
Location: Selmer, Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:06 am    Post subject:

Just a (rather obvious) suggestion, iMac, but you might consider downloading Neo version 2.x to use while working through the tutorials and User's Guide materials. Hands-on experience is hard to beat.

When Neo 3.0 goes public, you'll be able to simply download and install it, and all your work (templates, etc.) with 2.x will transfer to the new program. There are differences (especially in the spreadsheet module) but they're not earth-shaking. The underlying principles remain the same between the programs.

Getting used to dealing with styles may take you a while. Neo loves styles. Page styles, paragraph styles, character styles, frame styles, graphics styles--you name it, Neo's got it.

Except for table styles! (Go figure.) You cannot wrap text around a table, but you can put the table inside a frame and wrap text around the frame.

Word and WordPerfect users often have problems with styles in Neo. Many are accustomed to formatting as they go, and Neo wants you to plan your document and define your styles up front. A little practice with styles will save you a few new-adopter headaches. You need to understand how styles work in order to make Master Docs work properly.

_________________
Jim Plante
MacOS X 10.6.34, MacBook 2GHz C2Duo, 2gb, Neo 3.1.1 p 1
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iMac
Red Pill


Joined: Mar 25, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject:

Many thanks to all those of you who have posted suggestions or made helpful comments.

At this point, the total size of chapters and appendices is 40 meg and getting bigger. That's why I'm sure that sub-documents and a master document will be required. I just want to avoid a screw-up that will damage my work.


thanks again

Ian
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ovvldc
Captain Naiobi


Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2352
Location: Zürich, CH

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject:

I'm impressed. My dissertation will weigh in significantly below that Smile

Best wishes,
Oscar

_________________
"What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
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iMac
Red Pill


Joined: Mar 25, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject:

Oscar,

Lots of images are required for the topic, and they gobble up space. In some cases they are higher res than needed for printing off copies for my students on 8.5 by 11 paper, because they're ready for use in a real production book later. It would take a lot of writing to match a single graphic in KB. Smile Still, I've got about 500 pages now.

best wishes,
Ian
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pluby
The Architect
The Architect


Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject:

iMac wrote:
Lots of images are required for the topic, and they gobble up space. In some cases they are higher res than needed for printing off copies for my students on 8.5 by 11 paper, because they're ready for use in a real production book later. It would take a lot of writing to match a single graphic in KB. Smile Still, I've got about 500 pages now.


While several NeoOffice users have posted complimentary comments about NeoOffice, I just wanted to add that I would still recommend sticking with the application that you have been using.

You have a lot of data and my experience is that moving that much data is risky no matter which application you move to. Even if the don't find any bugs in a new application, my experience is that you will run into feature differences and/or limitations that will cost you time that you might not have planned on. For me, the pain caused by changing software (whether it is a word processor or a web server) has nearly always occurred yet the amount of pain still sometimes exceeded my own estimates.

In other words, Microsoft Word is the devil you know and NeoOffice (or other applications) are the devil you don't know. Wink

Patrick
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iMac
Red Pill


Joined: Mar 25, 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject:

As to "the devil I know", I understand the principle and appreciate the suggestion. However, a mechanism for indexing the whole book and paginating consecutively (so page numbers match the index) is NOT a devil I know.

Whatever solution I pursue it will be new for me and will involve a heavy learning curve. Knowing that the web is full of warnings about Word and master documents, and since Word08 has dropped the functionality, I'm still uncertain that Word is the best way to go.

I appreciate the reminder that I shouldn't go off on some tangent that will complicate my life unnecessarily. On the other hand, since I will have to learn new stuff even with the devil I know (Word), the question is where to direct that investment in learning both for the immediate problem and for longer-term usefulness of the skills I acquire.

Finally, marking up a text for indexing purposes is highly labor-intensive and enormously time-consuming and I presume the specifics differ from app to app. So, once the coding is done, I will have tied myself even more tightly to a particular app. Again, a reason to check out my options before taking the plunge.

I'm starting to think again about InDesign.

Many thanks again, Patrick, and all the others who have made comments and suggestions. You're all generous with your time.

Ian
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aussie149
The Merovingian


Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 607
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Master Documents

Hi iMac
The NeoOffice User Guide contains instructions for use of Master files. You can download it from the Download NeoOffice section on the left of this screen. The Guide you want is the first named (effectively Volume 1, since we then wrote a second volume). It was based on 2.x NeoOffice, but will be relevant for 3.0, if you want to go down that path. The original of this pdf file was a Master document itself. We deliberately did it as a master document so that we could learn about the process as we wrote. It got to about 20Mb. If you want to look at it, to play around with it, feel free to download it from http://www.geocities.com/aussie_149/NeoOffice_User_Guide/index.html The file you want is the zipped one NeoOffice_UserGuide_140707. Clicking on the .odm file in the unzipped folder launches the whole document. The original had a ToC at the front and an index at the back, but you will probably find the index links broken now. I have not bothered to track this down, because I have no need to.

Frankly, I found the process of master documents clunky to learn, but I have little doubt that Word's process would be equally so. Given that, I would tend to endorse Patrick's comments, that, if you are going to have to learn a lot of new things anyway, why not move to a dedicated publishing software and learn it?
Regards
Peter
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shades
Keymaker


Joined: Aug 18, 2005
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:21 pm    Post subject:

Howdy. Just one thought. When I published a book three years ago, it had 234 pages with 100+ photos. I originally began in 2001 using MS Word 2001, but it became unreliable after about 60 pages with just text. I tried several others (Nisus, Mellel, etc.), finally using Mellel for the writing and moving using outline view. But it didn't handle pictures like I wanted.

So I experimented with Papyrus XI (now in version XII), using only the German version, and found that it was more capable. I eventually bought the English version and used it for the book; it was by far the fastest page layout/writing tool I have used. It runs in RAM so it is light and can even be put on a USB stick to take with you. Available for both Mac and Windows. The power, flexibility, and ease of outlining, titling/outlining and auto numbering were enough for me. It also has built in indexing, cross-referencing, bibliography database, as well as Table of Contents capability. Not once did it crash or mess with a file. I began using it, used the Help and practice files, converted all my files and finished the layout in less than two months... all the while I was working one full time job and another part time job, neither related to writing or writing software.

I kept my chapters in individual files, but it was easy to begin page number appropriate to the file. However, it handled everything so well, I experimented (after the book was finished), and it easily handled the entire book in one file, which simplifies things like indexing, TOC, etc. I even used it for making the final PDFs for the printer. I also made extensive backups, because of my frustrations especially Word in the past.

Papyrus XII.

It was so much of a relief to work with reliable software. Note that both Nisus and Mellel were and are reliable, but they couldn't handle pictures/tables like I needed them to at the time of publishing the book. Both have improved, although Papyrus is still better than either. Were I publishing a book/article that included English, Greek, and Hebrew, I would definitely use Mellel, no question.
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