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NeoOffice :: View topic - when is neoffice/j 1.1 beta going to be released?
when is neoffice/j 1.1 beta going to be released?
 
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neouser
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:33 am    Post subject: when is neoffice/j 1.1 beta going to be released? Reply with quote

I would like to recommend NeoOffice/J to my non-technical friends, but having 'alpha' in the name and requiring them to download a patch after the main install is going to scare them off. So when is the beta likely to come out?
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pluby
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Joined: Jun 16, 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: when is neoffice/j 1.1 beta going to be released? Reply with quote

neouser wrote:
I would like to recommend NeoOffice/J to my non-technical friends, but having 'alpha' in the name and requiring them to download a patch after the main install is going to scare them off. So when is the beta likely to come out?


Beta will come out when Ed and I finish replacing the fake menus with native Mac OS X menus.

As for patches, you should expect to always see patches after any Neo/J release. This is because Neo/J is open source and, like most open source projects, development and testing is done by volunteers. As a result, most testing is done in public on a release itself.

In contrast, software that you buy from a company is tested by the company's internal staff. Presumably, by paying for software, you are paying for this assurance that the software is well tested.

That is why Neo/J is free. Volunteers develop and test it because we like to, not because we are trying to make money.

Patrick
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jakeOSX
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

may i suggest you send them to Neo/J 0.8.4? the alpha program is the move to the OO.o 1.1 code base. the OO.o 1.0.3 code base version, which is Neo/J 0.8.4 is very stable.

-j
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neouser
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: when is neoffice/j 1.1 beta going to be released? Reply with quote

pluby wrote:

As for patches, you should expect to always see patches after any Neo/J release. This is because Neo/J is open source and, like most open source projects, development and testing is done by volunteers. As a result, most testing is done in public on a release itself.


I am not criticising the open source development process. I have written several open source programs myself, and I have reported bugs in Neo/J, so I understand how it works. But I don't know any other open source projects that release binary patches. Binary patches are good for a large project to save bandwidth, but I also think when a binary patch is released the full release should also be updated so that new users only have to download one file. Obviously, if you plan to make a new full release in the next few days, it wouldnt be worth doing one for every single patch. This was why I asked how long until the beta, which I assumed would be the next full release.
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neouser
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jakeOSX wrote:
may i suggest you send them to Neo/J 0.8.4? the alpha program is the move to the OO.o 1.1 code base. the OO.o 1.0.3 code base version, which is Neo/J 0.8.4 is very stable.

-j


I was under the impression that 1.1 Alpha 2 was already more stable than 0.8.4?
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pluby
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: when is neoffice/j 1.1 beta going to be released? Reply with quote

neouser wrote:
I am not criticising the open source development process. I have written several open source programs myself, and I have reported bugs in Neo/J, so I understand how it works. But I don't know any other open source projects that release binary patches. Binary patches are good for a large project to save bandwidth, but I also think when a binary patch is released the full release should also be updated so that new users only have to download one file. Obviously, if you plan to make a new full release in the next few days, it wouldnt be worth doing one for every single patch. This was why I asked how long until the beta, which I assumed would be the next full release.


That process works when your releases are small, but Neo/J is over 130 MB. I and several mirrors are already funding a terabyte or more of bandwidth out of our own pockets and bandwidth is not cheap. If you have several terabytes of bandwidth to donate, I could easily change my process. Otherwise, we are bound by the limits of the pocketbooks of me and the Neo/J mirrors.

Patrick
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sardisson
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few additional thoughts on this subject:

Now that Patrick has moved to Apple Installer packages for the patches, it's really a less difficult/scary process. The patches are now much more like a traditional software update, e.g. OS X 10.2.8 or 10.3.5 (and personally I much prefer downloading small "updaters" rather than the wasteful common-OS X-method of just redownloading the entire application, whether it's 200KB or 200 MB). But no one's forcing anyone to actually apply the patches, either Smile

And once NeoJ 1.1 moves out of alpha (or beta), the patches should become much less frequent. Right now Patrick has added tons of new features (the entire OOo 1.1 codebase, with native menus in the pipeline) and we're taking the first crack at all this work and finding the bugs.

I'd imagine that if Patrick ever found a really critical bug (i.e., data loss), he'd release a new NeoJ binary (though I certainly can't speak for him).

Smokey
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jakeOSX
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neouser wrote:
I was under the impression that 1.1 Alpha 2 was already more stable than 0.8.4?


is this true? perhaps if it is an 'official' 1.1 release should be done, with a later release with the native menus.

though i was under the impression that 0.8.4 was still the most stable.
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pluby
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jakeOSX wrote:
though i was under the impression that 0.8.4 was still the most stable.


I am now convinced that 1.1 Alpha 2 (plus "Patch-2") is more stable than 0.8.4.

Patrick
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jakeOSX
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

may i suggest that we do a release then, rather than an alpha (especially since the 0.8.4 download page is gone)?

the issue is then when Neo/J does releases and OO.o does not now that you have adopted the 1.1 number for Neo/J

perhaps Neo/J XP? (that was a joke)
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pluby
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jakeOSX wrote:
may i suggest that we do a release then, rather than an alpha (especially since the 0.8.4 download page is gone)?

the issue is then when Neo/J does releases and OO.o does not now that you have adopted the 1.1 number for Neo/J


I feel unconfortable labeling any Neo/J as "official" at this time. This isn't because I think Neo/J isn't stable. Instead, it is based on my many years working in software companies. Let me explain.

My experience is that most companies, when they produce software, are always in a hurry to get it shipped so that it starts making money. This constant rush results in software that is labelled as "official" even when it is still buggy or inadequately tested.

Years ago, companies actually put out alpha and beta releases but then, probably due to the realization that people will buy something labelled as "official" but not something labelled as alpha or beta, many companies started rushing out software releases.

If you are selling software, this makes sense and, as a company, you have to deal with the fallout of all the people that either feel ripped off or all the people that have an endless stream of support questions. Hey, even the support questions are a potential moneymaker!

Since I am not selling Neo/J for money, most of the motivations for labelling a release official just aren't there. Right now, I am not ready for the flood of user support questions and I don't think our community is large enough yet to handle this either. With time, out community will grow and then we may be able to handle it, but not right now.

Why am I so worried? Well, its no secret that as soon as OOo went "official" (and still had many bugs that I have fixed in Neo/J), many CD resellers immediately started stamping OOo CDs and reselling them. As a result, the OOo 1.1.2 release is frozen in time and, if OOo does not meet a user's expectations, they give up on it.

In contrast, by labelling Neo/J as an alpha or beta, user's know that it is not perfect and, if they are interested in it, they might be drawn into our community. This is a slower approach, but in the long run I think it might be the better (or at least more sustainable) approach. After all, this is more or less how the Apache webserver became such a standard.

Lastly, as Ed and I add native menus, buttons, etc., there is the distinct possibility that Neo/J may become less stable for a short period of time. Many users say they want Aqua menus, buttons, etc., but the path to that will require a lot of testing just like we went through when I added native printing support to Neo/J.

Does this make sense?

Patrick
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Max_Barel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pluby wrote:
Does this make sense?

definitely
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Chris C.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have got to agree that the latest NeoJ fully patched is by far faster and more stable then the .84 release.

And as to the "official" thing...

How about a compromise of "semi official", or for better marketing you could always use the NC-17 label...
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yoxi
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris C. wrote:
How about a compromise of "semi official", or for better marketing you could always use the NC-17 label...

Wow - culturally referential - I had to look that up on the net, not being a US English speaker... so basically the difference between R-rated and NC-17 rated films is visible penis content? <shows great restraint>it's good to know that people are being employed to take such good care of your under-18s' sensibilities over there</shows great restraint>

Sorry - off-topic in a big way... I really like being involved in the testing of software like NeoOffice/J that's constantly being improved in this way, as opposed to waiting for annual releases of 'finished' versions with no possibility of real feedback to the company etc. etc.

Perhaps you should call the eternal pre-release:

"NeoOffice/J 1.1 moa betta"... =)

- yoxi
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: NeoOffice names Reply with quote

yoxi wrote:
Perhaps you should call the eternal pre-release:

"NeoOffice/J 1.1 moa betta"... =)

NeoOffice premature eJavalation Wink
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