I run FC3 with an Aqua theme and OOo looks just fine. Not like a real Mac app but much better than the horrid X11 version. Just changing the icons for the ximian ones and putting 5% grey in all the icon bars is a huge improvement.
Couldn't this be done in a minimum amount of time? (I ain't a programmer)
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:35 am Post subject:
Doing so would still have the application running in X11. It's been mentioned in some of the X11 plans, but it starts running into problems with using GTK on OS X X11. We'd need to find a way to use GTK theming on a single app basis with prefs and libraries that don't break other apps. It would add to the download size. There are also potential copyright issues with redistributing an Aqua-like GTK theme. I'm unfortunately not an expert on that point, but it has been cited as one of the reasons Mozilla didn't pursue a skinning path but rather a true theming path. Another problem with skinning is that the look of widgets changes with a person's operating system...buttons, for example, look slightly different on 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3. It looks a bit odd if you're on 10.3 and the skin is using 10.2-style buttons or tabs
I just honestly don't know whether it's worth the effort to do that in X11. Moving the NWF into Neo and doing an Aqua/Java implementation is what I've been leaning to. Then the widgets will be rendered with the OS X libraries and look exactly like other ones on the platform and will automatically incorporate any changes Apple makes to them in the future
There are also potential copyright issues with redistributing an Aqua-like GTK theme. I'm unfortunately not an expert on that point, but it has been cited as one of the reasons Mozilla didn't pursue a skinning path but rather a true theming path. Another problem with skinning is that the look of widgets changes with a person's operating system...buttons, for example, look slightly different on 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3. It looks a bit odd if you're on 10.3 and the skin is using 10.2-style buttons or tabs
Having been around during the early discussions of XUL and theming for Mozilla, I can confirm that a big concern was Apple's, uh, protective stance against Aqua look-and-act-alikes. Ie, it was possible to make a XUL skin that looked much like aqua, but to get it to act exactly the same was gonna be hard, and Apple didn't want anything being sort-of-like-aqua-but-not-exactly. They wanted anything that looked like aqua to be real aqua. There was also a concern that aqua, being a big deal in UI to Apple, wouldn't want a cross-platform version of aqua floating around, even, or rather especially, if it worked 100% like real Aqua.
In any event, I can't remember whether Apple explicitely said it would be a problem via some policy or whether everyone just figured it would become a legal liability, but from what I recall, the Mozilla UI people (Dave Hyatt and Ben Goodger among them) ultimately concluded that Apple would want real aqua-- that trying to simulate it would cause trouble. Which actually lead to some advancements to XUL in providing actual native aqua scrollbars, etc.
This was some years ago, but it's how I remember it anyway.
W
I just honestly don't know whether it's worth the effort to do that in X11. Moving the NWF into Neo and doing an Aqua/Java implementation is what I've been leaning to. Then the widgets will be rendered with the OS X libraries and look exactly like other ones on the platform and will automatically incorporate any changes Apple makes to them in the future
Well, I am not a programmer, but in light of this discussion I'd say: go with the official aqua stuff if it is not too much more work. Let Apple decide how each implementation looks and hook into their work. Saves headache later on.
Also, someone mentioned an alternative set of aqua widgets, which I took as a fix for Apple's Swing (don't remember the post or thread right now). Might be an alternative if push comes to shove (if licensing allows).
But again, I am not a programmer and given their record and achievements, I stand behind whatever Ed and Patrick decide. _________________ "What do you think of Western Civilization?"
"I think it would be a good idea!"
- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
I was sugesting to use the icons only and to get the horrible dark grey background out of the icon bars and dialog boxes. For the time being while real Aqua development continues.
This is a marketing ploy to get a semi-attractive Neo/J to the masses while buying time.
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject:
Ah! Dan's done some work on the backgrounds for NeoJ windows/dialogs but has been playing around with how to integrate it. Our plans were to push it off until after the 1.1 release since I think the thought was it would kind of look silly to have an Aqua background for dialogs still populated with Win95ish buttons. Dan could provide more info on his work
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject:
I don't have any or know what progress, if any, Dan made. I know he was working on it since I was passing along hints on where to get Carbon window handles and the like.
Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: OOO OOO OOO PICK ME!!!!!
heh, sory to come along so late on this but i am an experienced UI developer and quite a talented artist, thats right i AM an artist. but im also a geek. how do i help direct, supplement, etc.... just curious about the progress and wondering if i can get in while the grass is still short.
experience : JabberFox, Chicago Java, and an old skrewl LiteStep hack
basically do corprate design at the Creative Director level. and have portfolio peices if anyone needs em...
looking forward to getting my hands dirty on this!!
and thrilled to see that its being deved by an ACTIVE comunity of OS developers, as opposed to its former caretakers
So... like.. what's the status w/this effort? Has it been abandoned? Is it a full UI redesign (which I doubt will happen for years) or a block of replacement icons?
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 45 Location: Le Mans, France
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:38 pm Post subject: Re:GUI Icon Redesign
Terry Teague wrote:
salty wrote:
Actually I was also thinking I'd like to apply to help with the GUI redesign.
And I regularly design my own icons.
At the risk of hijacking this thread slightly, and not being specifically NeoOffice/J related, if someone would like to design a better application icon for "Start OpenOffice.org", I would be eternally grateful, and would credit the person in documentation etc. I am not an artist, as you can plainly see (although I do provide an alternate set of icons created by someone who knows what they are doing). NeoOffice/J will probably eventually make OpenOffice/X11 and "Start OpenOffice.org" obsolete, but until then...
If you are interested in helping, please contact me offline (you will find my EMail address in the "Start OpenOffice.org" documentation etc).
Regards, Terry
[ author of "Start OpenOffice.org" ]
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: OpenOffice Prototype Pic
Waldo wrote:
So... like.. what's the status w/this effort? Has it been abandoned? Is it a full UI redesign (which I doubt will happen for years) or a block of replacement icons?
That's a good question. I'm still hanging around the periphery, but I suspect RedOrchard is gone? Any truth to that?
Presuming he is gone, here is the problem as I see it: On one hand, partipation is often enough to buy a seat at the table in an open source project. On the other, one doesn't have to look very far to realize that there are incredibly disparate ideas out there of what makes a good icon. The OS X style guide is helpful, but what the guide doesn't answer could fill up the guide a hundred times over.
For me, what it boils down to is having one or two people sitting at the top, who will make all final decisions. As GUI affects so much of people's impressions, this should be people who have already heavily contributed to making Neo/J the sucess it is.
Below them, there should be a council of all of the artists who are going to be involved. I suggest that it might be worth trolling for people to get into this group instead of just waiting to see who had the initiative to show up here; I suspect there are many artists who would help who don't even know they have the opportunity.
Once such a group exists (say 3-6 people), they could sit down and hash out a style-guide for NeoOffice. Once they had the style guide, they could move forth to build the icons.
As for my part, I'm ready to admit that I'm a better artist than some, worse than many others. I feel, having looked at a lot of icons out there, that my best place is to help find artists better than myself and to do the background work so that the artists don't have to learn CVS or other technical stuff in order to contribute to the project.
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: OpenOffice Prototype Pic
berchca wrote:
For me, what it boils down to is having one or two people sitting at the top, who will make all final decisions. As GUI affects so much of people's impressions, this should be people who have already heavily contributed to making Neo/J the sucess it is.
Patrick and Ed
berchca wrote:
Below them, there should be a council of all of the artists who are going to be involved. I suggest that it might be worth trolling for people to get into this group instead of just waiting to see who had the initiative to show up here; I suspect there are many artists who would help who don't even know they have the opportunity.
It's probably worthwhile, then, to see about getting a blurb about this posted on ResExcellence (and other relevant sites). If we're still looking for people when 1.1 Final comes out, we can include the "call for UI icon artists" in our more general press push announcing 1.1 Final....
berchca wrote:
Once such a group exists (say 3-6 people), they could sit down and hash out a style-guide for NeoOffice. Once they had the style guide, they could move forth to build the icons.
There are indeed a lot of icons to be made, but hopefully the group will be big enough to divide the icon-creating work sufficiently while small enough to be manageable and able to generate consensus.
I also think it is a good idea to give the rest of the community a peek at what's going on at certain points and listen to the feedback, recognizing that not all of it can be reconciled. In the two previous UI design projects, both foxcorner and I posted some of our in-progress designs and heard comments. I recall most clearly the (more recent) splashscreen redesign, when there was a bit of noise and comments headed in far-off other directions, but slight tweaks (greenish sea -> blue, etc.) did improve the overall final product IMnsHO. There's no replacement for solid artistic vision and skill, but the little bits of feedback did give the (active) community an opportunity to be a part of the process and not be in the dark when a new build appears with the changes....
Just my 2¢
berchca wrote:
So, am I making sense or talking nonsense?
Sounds pretty sane to me.
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: 2nd revision of the GUI
I agree with berchca’s ideas.
As far as I know ImageMagick needs to be setup to be more easily used for oo development. I think ovvldc was working on that.
Here is the 2nd revision of the GUI redesign. It lacks much commentary but it’s pretty straight forward. Most of the redesign is in reducing menu size and getting the menus out of the way of the work space. I’m not totally satisfied with it but as a 2nd revision it’s not bad. I changed the sample theme to a less depressing subject matter.
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