Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject:
enhancement installer would mean lots of work and additional serverspace. for german the installation of the OOo-templates linked in the wiki is easy enough to just give the link (afaics). I do not really loud speak against an enhancement installer, but isn't it easier the other way? (sample and links)
T
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject:
Yes, doing links off of a wiki and the like is definitely a good step. I'm thinking more long-term, however, into a secondary installer that's off of the main downloads page similar to the existing language pack installers. Secondary installer could contain clipart, templates, and potentially additional materials (e.g. useful macros, alternate icon sets, etc.). Now that OOo has been out for a while, there may be enough such resources to make an enhancement pack feasible.
Lack of templates (and clipart) is one of the common things (besides the UI and a few other non-Mac bits) that show up in reviews of Neo as a minus. It's not something that means a lot to me personally, but I recognize that they're useful to others.
The "enhancement pack" sounds like a good idea...it doesn't further expand the size of the default install, but it's easily available and installable for people who want it. (The readme for said package should also include a link to relevant wiki pages that point out additional sources of templates/clipart/macros/etc.)
Smokey _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:20 am Post subject:
Ed, Smokey, yes I aggree with your opinion (as I said I will not loudly speak against it) and if it is a long term thing, I only can say yes (BUT: will not have the opportunity to add much of my time to work on that with you). There is a thing sounding nearly like what you suggest, Ed, in the german PrOOoBox http://prooo-box.org/. Perhaps having a look at this can help getting the thought clearer?
T.
Joined: Nov 21, 2005 Posts: 1285 Location: Witless Protection Program
Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject:
OPENSTEP wrote:
1. Yes, doing links off of a wiki and the like is definitely a good step.
2. I'm thinking more long-term, however, into a secondary installer that's off of the main downloads page similar to the existing language pack installers. Secondary installer could contain clipart, templates, and potentially additional materials (e.g. useful macros, alternate icon sets, etc.).
Now that OOo has been out for a while, there may be enough such resources to make an enhancement pack feasible.
ed
I vote / like the suggestions in the above order. #1 is quick and easy to do. #2 would be nice, IFF someone has the skill, and time, to create a secondary installer.
I just don't want anything to delay our ... Elite Developers from there NeoOffice 2.0 efforts.
Philip (would use the Secondary installer, if available )
1. Yes, doing links off of a wiki and the like is definitely a good step.
2. I'm thinking more long-term, however, into a secondary installer that's off of the main downloads page similar to the existing language pack installers. Secondary installer could contain clipart, templates, and potentially additional materials (e.g. useful macros, alternate icon sets, etc.).
Now that OOo has been out for a while, there may be enough such resources to make an enhancement pack feasible.
ed
I vote / like the suggestions in the above order. #1 is quick and easy to do. #2 would be nice, IFF someone has the skill, and time, to create a secondary installer.
I just don't want anything to delay our ... Elite Developers from there NeoOffice 2.0 efforts.
I quite agree and take the last comment as a compliment. I don't know about the skills to develop a secondary installer, but it can be something that could be worked after NeoOffice 2.0 is out.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:26 am Post subject:
Now as the installer bug is solved by 1.2.2 (thx to Patrick again!), I would suggest to bundle the development ideas for a secondary installer somewhat. I still agree with Philip and James, it is not yet time to have a secondary installer developed. 2.0 and MacTel come first, I think everybody will agree.
But those of us who are not immediately concerned with the progress of programming could prepare collections for a secondary installer. Some of this is already going on for the clipart-thing here: http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2511.
I think we first would need a signal from a developer, whether or not one of them (Ed? James? someone else - I do not dare asking Patrick, assuming he will be occupied with the main programing, bugs and thelike, even when 2.0 and MacTel are out - correct?) is willing to make an installer when the time has come (i.e. when 2.0 and MacTel are out and stable AND the collections are prepared - not earlier).
Second, we should bundle all the activities, leading to such a thing. I suggest moving the template thread as a whole to the development forum or create a new "collecting templates for a secondary installer" thread there - thus we have two discussions in that forum, one for clipart and one for templates. And I suggest, when there are results, we bring them together in bugzillas bug434.
Now as the installer bug is solved by 1.2.2 (thx to Patrick again!), I would suggest to bundle the development ideas for a secondary installer somewhat. I still agree with Philip and James, it is not yet time to have a secondary installer developed. 2.0 and MacTel come first, I think everybody will agree.
I think that I need to comment here so that all of you can resolve plans. My view is that this is a separate project like NeoIconer. Like NeoIconer, you should create your own installer and host your own distribution site. You are welcome to use our forums for discussion and/or support, but I have no interest in doing any of the maintenance, support, or download activities for this.
Why? Not because I don't think your work is valuable. It is valuable. However, despite being open source for over 3 years now, NeoOffice is still primarily a one man show. That one man (me) has limited time and money and, quite frankly, the existing NeoOffice scope already consumes roughly 70 hours a week of my time (yes, I work 7 days a week on NeoOffice) in return for a very small amount of money. Hence, I am not looking to expand the scope of the NeoOffice project. Of course, since the NeoOffice installer code is GPL, you can use as much of it as you want in your installer as long as you GPL your code.
OK. Now some advice. The big issue that you will have is bandwidth. Bandwidth is very expensive (at least in the United States) and if you put out a binary that is 100 MB in size, you will go through the standard 20 GB download limit that most sites have with only 200 downloads per month. This means that sites like SourceForge.net are not going to meet your needs and you will either need to cough up a lot of money or go beg for mirrors like I do. You can probably put your code in SourceForge.net, but they will cut off your downloads if the bandwidth usage is too high.
To help you estimate the possible downloads per month, NeoOffice averages nearly 150,000 downloads per month. So, if 5% of those users download your installer and your installer is 100 MB in size, you will need to plan on having 1500 GB (15,000 X 100 MB) of bandwidth available per month.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:36 am Post subject:
Patrick, this were clear, understandable and friendly words. Thanks for this, because it helps getting thoughts clearer.
Now I would need reactions and answers from the others who were/are involved in this, e.g. Ed, Peter, Philip and who ever wants to say something. How do you see this?
I personally would give some of my time for searching german templates and watching through the pictures needed for a secondary installer. I personally would not be able to programm an installer, nor to host the installer nor have the ressources to pay or beg for bandwith.
Now: How do we continue? Will this be a secondary project or not?
If noone does answer I will not continue my efforts on this thread (secondary installer)and keep looking for wiki-additions instead, because I personally can not do enough for an installer and do not have the abilities to "be" the secondary installer project.
Another question, to Patrick: If we instead made a small collection of additional clipart and templates, say, about 100 or 200 .pngs and about 200 templates in english frech german - would you have interesst to add these both or one of these to the main distribution? And, if so, would there be conditions for this? I think we should get points like these clear, because clearness helps working together.
If we instead made a small collection of additional clipart and templates, say, about 100 or 200 .pngs and about 200 templates in english frech german - would you have interesst to add these both or one of these to the main distribution? And, if so, would there be conditions for this? I think we should get points like these clear, because clearness helps working together.
One of the things I dislike about software installers is when they bundle a whole lot of graphics and templates which I will never use or adapt to my use. I prefer the approach of making such 'goodies' an option. Some, like Adobe, deliver these on secondary CDs, separate from the Installer CD. Others offer links to download sites.
Just at present, I feel that NeoOffice should deliver the same package as its Windoze & Linux cousins, with no frills attached.
If I'd like to see more templates and graphics available to users, I would prefer to see those efforts directed towards enhancing the user experience for both OpenOffice and NeoOffice, not just one or the other. If NeoOffice users can develop and contribute template content for all OpenOffice users, we might expect to see the profile of NeoOffice rise in the OpenOffice community and that would not be a bad thing, would it?
Regards, _________________ Ray Saunders
World Scout Bureau
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:51 am Post subject:
rays wrote:
Just at present, I feel that NeoOffice should deliver the same package as its Windoze & Linux cousins, with no frills attached.
If I'd like to see more templates and graphics available to users, I would prefer to see those efforts directed towards enhancing the user experience for both OpenOffice and NeoOffice, not just one or the other. If NeoOffice users can develop and contribute template content for all OpenOffice users, we might expect to see the profile of NeoOffice rise in the OpenOffice community and that would not be a bad thing, would it?
Two answers: First: I personally will not be able to develop template content. My idea here was just to collect it and make it more easy to install. That is because now many things seem to be there, but they are a little widespread around different web adresses. Such, it is an ease-of-use thing. (BTW german users can easily get more clipart and german templates and more on the ProOOBox CD mentioned earlier in this thread.)
Second, for clipart: There is a discussion on developing a distributable clipart thing at http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2511. Ray, I see your statement as pointing in the same direction as my last post there.
Another question, to Patrick: If we instead made a small collection of additional clipart and templates, say, about 100 or 200 .pngs and about 200 templates in english frech german - would you have interesst to add these both or one of these to the main distribution? And, if so, would there be conditions for this? I think we should get points like these clear, because clearness helps working together.
No, making it smaller does not make much difference to me. While making it small helps on bandwidth, you would still be transferring a bunch of work and legal risk to me without any compensation. What legal risk? The risk that you haven't properly verified that every single one of the files that you assemble is available under the GPL. If you make your own download, then you can 1) use a different license if necessary and, more importantly, 2) I am not liable for any mistakes that you might make. Sorry, but I don't work or accept legal risk for free just as you probably don't work for your employer either.
Seriously, if you really think it is a worthwhile effort, then you should put in the effort and do the entire project. Offloading the heavy lifting is something that you can do in big corporations, but is not something that works in small volunteer organizations. If your download is small enough, you should be able to use SourceForge or a similar site to host your development, web pages, and downloads without a problem.
Joined: Nov 28, 2005 Posts: 299 Location: Near Frankfurt/M. Germany
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:50 am Post subject:
pluby wrote:
No, making it smaller does not make much difference to me. While making it small helps on bandwidth, you would still be transferring a bunch of work and legal risk to me without any compensation. What legal risk? The risk that you haven't properly verified that every single one of the files that you assemble is available under the GPL. If you make your own download, then you can 1) use a different license if necessary and, more importantly, 2) I am not liable for any mistakes that you might make. Sorry, but I don't work or accept legal risk for free just as you probably don't work for your employer either.
It was not my intention to transfer any risk or work. The idea was just to contribute a thing to Neo. But, I think your point is clear, and it is good to have this point clear.
Quote:
Seriously, if you really think it is a worthwhile effort, then you should put in the effort and do the entire project. Offloading the heavy lifting is something that you can do in big corporations, but is not something that works in small volunteer organizations. If your download is small enough, you should be able to use SourceForge or a similar site to host your development, web pages, and downloads without a problem.
Patrick
Well, as far as I see it now, the process is continuing for the clipart-thing. Perhaps there a package may evolve, that could be added to the OO.o pages, where it is useful for Neo as for OOo (see the discussion at development-"looking good..."-thread. If this will not be possible because of size or other reasons, that I do not see by now, perhaps the people involved in this process will do a project of their(our) own.
I think nobody does intend to transfer work or risk or anything else to someone. The goal, as I see it, is to contribute what we can contribute. For me, that is time and my eyes and thoughts and writing, as I don't have money or programming abilities. And I am searching for the best place to contribute what I have - perhaps some others could say similar things for themselves. Within this process for me it is good to know all the points where I am in danger to transfer work and risk - because this is something I do not want to do, and I do not know where the points lie until someone tells me. Therefore, I think, a discussion like we do it here, helps getting things clearer, at least for me. I personally see no offenses in this and hope my words are not taken as such.
Patrick thanks again for your words as they help clarifying.
Joined: Feb 12, 2005 Posts: 607 Location: Australia
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Licences and Risk, Servers and all that
Hi Patrick
Thanks for outlining the issues so cogently. It was important that we knew where we were headed with this.
Personally, I have the time and the inclination to put into developing a collection. I'm also following up on, and educating myself about the copyright and licence issues.
So far, I have restricted my collecting quite deliberately to a very small number of collections, which have clear and unequivocal public domain clearance. I have dropped some nice images because they contain recognisable individuals [the Apollo 11 team shot is one instance] and we don't have model clearance. Likewise, I 've dropped a Macdonald's arch image.
Even then, I suggest we get the author's understanding of what we are doing, to ensure that they clear it with us in writing [even though their licence suggests they are not required to]. We should agree with them on a form of communication to go in the package, acknowledging their work, even though that also is not required. I'd rather be ultra-careful now, than have hassles later.
I can't do the programming of the package, but I can help with testing. We [those interested in this sub-project] need to recruit someone who can package an installer for us. I can see the sense of Patrick wanting this to be an add-on to his program, rather than part of it. That also gives users a choice as to whether they use that feature.
I suggest we keep going as we are, develop a medium size package [1500-2000 images], then hack that back to about 500 images to see what you end up with, and decide from there what hosting is needed. I say 1500 is a medium size: eg the clipart with Swift Publisher is 23,000! The clipart with my education copy of MS Office 2004 is about 600, but I presume that's the basic single-cd colection.
Personally, I think a package of 1500 covers many more uses than 500. 200 is just frustration: you'll never have the image you need, and you'll end up looking for another collection anyway, which is where this all started. I can spend time getting a package of 1500-2000 together: that's not a big problem, provided we can agree on format [probably png and jpg, following discussion on the other relevant site here ] Once that is done, we can look at editing that down to 500. We can then decide - do we want to host two packages or one, and how/where?
i suspect that the installer itself may turn out to be more useful than the contents.
let me explain. while it is nice to have this package (something i wholely support) i think that the code which places the pictures and templates where they should be could intice people to make others for their collections.
give them a hole, they'll fall into it, give them a shovel, they may dig their own holes.
and i just made that up, so it may not mean what i think it does. =D
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from there NeoOffice 2.0 efforts. 
It was important that we knew where we were headed with this.
