Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: Beta 2 : first impressions and remarks about Fonts comboxes
Hi all,
As suggested by a certain Patrick at planamesa, I start a new topic about the Beta release, even though it's only accessible to those who join the early access program.
So first of all : it worth it guys
The 'Aqua' in the name is not an ad, it's real : save/open dialogs are native aqua now, as all dialogs are... it rocks !
Another good surprise is that I can notice a genera speed improvement (which was already present in Alpha 4 though), but it's confirmed, and that's cool.
Now, some glitches :
The mouse wheel doesn't work in combo boxes such as Font, size, etc. Now they look the same as elsewhere in the system, the user is driven to expect they behave the same. It's not the case and a little frustrating. -> back to code guys
(I know it's certainly not as easy to implement as tu use, but I really think it worth it for the final 2.0 release in order to spread NeoOffice to average users.)
The Size combo is too large as shown in picture.
It could be reduce about a third of its width. Not a big concern, but users could put one button more on the bar...
And finally, there's a strange shadow on the right of the cell and functions combo in the spreadsheet.
In conclusion, only minor glitches, except the first one which has concerns in terms of usability and coherence with the system.
Rock it guys, and my best wishes for the early acess program. I'd have donate anyway, but knowing you need it, I did it even more happily.
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Beta 2 : first impressions and remarks about Fonts combo
pichel wrote:
Hi all,
The mouse wheel doesn't work in combo boxes such as Font, size, etc. Now they look the same as elsewhere in the system, the user is driven to expect they behave the same. It's not the case and a little frustrating. -> back to code guys
(I know it's certainly not as easy to implement as tu use, but I really think it worth it for the final 2.0 release in order to spread NeoOffice to average users.)
I had already reported this bug a while ago but it can't be fixed since it's a Java 1.4 bug (it doesn't send mouse wheel events to frameless windows, see bugzilla when it's back up).
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Beta 2 : first impressions and remarks about Fonts combo
val1984 already listed the reasons for the scroll wheel not working in the combo box scrolling lists. The same limitation exists for popup menus as well. Since it's a Java limitation as Java's doing the event dispatch for scrollwheels, I'm not sure if we'll be able to solve this one.
pichel wrote:
The Size combo is too large as shown in picture.
It could be reduce about a third of its width. Not a big concern, but users could put one button more on the bar...
The size of the combobox is actually being received from OOo itself. The comboboxes should be the same size as in the Alpha. I believe that they're done as "fixed width" controls in the OOo code itself and aren't adapting to the actual width necessary to display the contents . I'll look into it and see if there's anything quick I can find.
pichel wrote:
And finally, there's a strange shadow on the right of the cell and functions combo in the spreadsheet.
You'll probably see a number of these spurious shadows for some time. This is the "cheap whore" effect that was mentioned in teh development fora...Aqua widgets actually draw their shadows with alpha-blending, so if the same control gets redrawn twice the shadow gets darker. Patrick and I got rid of a number of these in the interface but there are some that are still around.
If you see them, feel free to file the shadow issues in BugZilla once it's back up. The Calc combo boxes are sure not to be the last
Joined: Apr 21, 2006 Posts: 95 Location: Utah, USA
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Beta 2 : first impressions and remarks about Fonts combo
OPENSTEP wrote:
val1984 already listed the reasons for the scroll wheel not working in the combo box scrolling lists. The same limitation exists for popup menus as well. Since it's a Java limitation as Java's doing the event dispatch for scrollwheels, I'm not sure if we'll be able to solve this one.
I know that it's probably low on the priority list - but I agree that this one eventually should be solved. I understand the technical limitations - but saying that we might be able to solve it is pretty sad...look at all that's been done to get NeoOffice to where it is today!
This is in no way to diminish what has been done - please don't take it that way - but to the end user, they don't care if there is a "technical limitation" or not - they just want things to perform the way that they expect them to perform. Hasn't this been the driving factor behind NeoOffice? Getting an office application that "just works" and is "integrated" with MacOS?
If I remember correctly, it was something about "borderless windows" not receiving mouse wheel events...I'm sure that there has to be some kind of workaround for it... I'd be willing to look into workarounds even. According to the bug posted in bugzilla, someone (I think it was Patrick) said that he had created a reproducable test case which was sent to Apple...would you be possible to post that somewhere, and I would be willing to look into it as well. That way, it would free you guys up for doing the stuff you do the best!
Like I said, it's a pretty low priority, and NeoOffice is great as it currently is. You guys have done a great job!
When it's an Apple bug (and this one is), the best thing people can do is report it to Apple individually; the more reports Apple gets, the more likely they are to think about fixing it....
Apple fixed a few input method bugs in 1.4.2, but they broke a whole lot more IME bits, for instance, and we've been encouraging reporters to submit bug reports to Apple.... _________________ "[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Beta 2 : first impressions and remarks about Fonts combo
toonetown wrote:
I know that it's probably low on the priority list - but I agree that this one eventually should be solved. I understand the technical limitations - but saying that we might be able to solve it is pretty sad...look at all that's been done to get NeoOffice to where it is today!
This is in no way to diminish what has been done - please don't take it that way - but to the end user, they don't care if there is a "technical limitation" or not - they just want things to perform the way that they expect them to perform. Hasn't this been the driving factor behind NeoOffice? Getting an office application that "just works" and is "integrated" with MacOS?
Excellent cheerleading, but you are ignoring the facts: there are no mouse wheel events exist in a borderless window in Java on Mac. This is an Apple bug and they have not fixed it and, from experience, probably won't.
toonetown wrote:
If I remember correctly, it was something about "borderless windows" not receiving mouse wheel events...I'm sure that there has to be some kind of workaround for it... I'd be willing to look into workarounds even. According to the bug posted in bugzilla, someone (I think it was Patrick) said that he had created a reproducable test case which was sent to Apple...would you be possible to post that somewhere, and I would be willing to look into it as well. That way, it would free you guys up for doing the stuff you do the best!
When you figure out how to capture notifications that don't exist, let me know.
What about using something other than borderless windows - which *do* capture the events?
??? I'm not putting a damn title bar on a drop down window. Now I'm annoyed because your not even talking rationally about the code. I spent a solid day getting to the root of the bug and documenting why it won't work. If you don't believe me that it is infeasible with Apple's current JVM, then prove me wrong. But don't grill me without even looking at the explanation and testing the code yourself.
Joined: Apr 21, 2006 Posts: 95 Location: Utah, USA
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject:
pluby wrote:
toonetown wrote:
What about using something other than borderless windows - which *do* capture the events?
??? I'm not putting a damn title bar on a drop down window. Now I'm annoyed because your not even talking rationally about the code. I spent a solid day getting to the root of the bug and documenting why it won't work. If you don't believe me that it is infeasible with Apple's current JVM, then prove me wrong. But don't grill me without even looking at the explanation and testing the code yourself.
Patrick
Whoa! I'm sorry if I offended you - I didn't mean to at all...
You are correct, I have *no idea* what the test case you created and wrote up and documented with Apple... I'm not trying to grill you - I was merely throwing out suggestions which may or may not work. Yes, I haven't looked at the explanation, or tested the code myself - that's the very reason I was asking if there was any way to get that test case and documentation - because I actually *want* to look at it and test it myself.
I totally appreciate all the work you do, and again, I really didn't mean any offense, and I didn't mean to sound like I was "grilling" you...
Joined: May 25, 2003 Posts: 4752 Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject:
FWIW, this is also the same issue that makes adding horizontal scrollwheel support impossible. The Java VM is trapping all scrollwheel events and dispatching them itself, and there's no way for us to override its handler and add in our own. For scrollwheels, we're unfortunately forced to live with the bugs in the Apple VM.
I still have bugs filed with Apple that have been open for years. I suspect they give more priority to things reported by paying customers and definitely more to Cocoa/Carbon bugs than things in less used system tools and Java.
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The mouse wheel doesn't work in combo boxes such as Font, size, etc. Now they look the same as elsewhere in the system, the user is driven to expect they behave the same. It's not the case and a little frustrating. -> back to code guys 
