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sardisson
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Joined: Feb 01, 2004
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 Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about the Tahoma included with Office 2008, but older Tahoma versions either don't have Hebrew glyphs or are in Windows formats where the Hebrew glyphs won't work with Mac programs (e.g., Mac fonts for RTL and CTL scripts have to be AAT fonts; see the introduction to the article).
Smokey
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"[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki |
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pluby
The Architect
Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hebrew font |
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| Joeyci wrote: | I disabled all Hebrew fonts, but the document still shows up the same way. On your machine does the whole thing appear in Arial? Just curious.
Also, I don't know if this helps, but all of the characters used on the lines displaying in arial are used elsewhere in the document and display the same way as the rest of it.
Thanks again. |
Yes. All lines fallback to Arial for me. Raanana is the only other obvious Hebrew font that I have on my machine.
Let me think about ways to troubleshoot this further and hopefully by tomorrow I give a "debug patch" that you can install to collect some information that we can use for troubleshooting the cause of the problem.
Patrick |
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Joeyci
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Joined: May 16, 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: Hebrew font |
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| Great thanks. I won't be back by a computer (after today) until Thursday night, so take your time. |
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Lorinda
Captain Mifune
Joined: Jun 20, 2006
Posts: 2051
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I just downloaded the test file, and it all shows up correctly for me, too. (It all defaults to Arial).
I double checked, and as Joeyci said, there are no unique characters in the line that's not showing up correctly in their copy. The one thing that struck me as odd was the double vav in כוונת. That's the only time a double vav shows up in the document. But I'm not sure why that would cause a problem.
Here's another way to find which fonts include Hebrew glyphs on your machine, and it might also find the one causing the problem:
-Copy the text of the line that is not displaying properly
-Open Font Book
-From the Preview menu, choose "Custom"
-In the Preview drawer (the right column in the Font Book window), paste the text you copied earlier
-Use the arrow keys on your keyboard to slowly move through the list of fonts in the middle column (Make sure the left column is set to "All Fonts")
This will let you see which fonts include Hebrew glyphs. It should also be noticeable if there is a font that can't correctly render one of the characters in that line.
That would also let you see what Hebrew font you like best and change the whole document to that font.
Lorinda |
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pluby
The Architect
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Lorinda
Captain Mifune
Joined: Jun 20, 2006
Posts: 2051
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Patrick,
I don't know if this makes any difference or not, but I don't have the Raanana font on my 10.6.3 MacBook Pro. Do you (or does anyone) know if Apple still includes the Raanana font in Snow Leopard? I can't find an official font list for 10.6, so I can't determine if this is something odd with my machine or standard practice.
If not, does this affect the approach you've taken in the test patch?
Lorinda |
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pluby
The Architect
Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Lorinda wrote: | | I don't know if this makes any difference or not, but I don't have the Raanana font on my 10.6.3 MacBook Pro. Do you (or does anyone) know if Apple still includes the Raanana font in Snow Leopard? I can't find an official font list for 10.6, so I can't determine if this is something odd with my machine or standard practice. |
When I click on the Font Book application's "All Fonts" collection on Mac OS X 10.6.3, the Raanana font is there. I installed Mac OS X 10.6.3 as a clean install on an empty volume so I am pretty certain that Raanana is bundled with Mac OS X 10.6.3.
If you have disabled or removed the Raanana font, what will happen is that the old behavior - fallback to the first font found that supports Hebrew characters - will be used. My code only marks the Raanana font as the preferred Hebrew fallback font but only if the font is found on your machine.
Patrick |
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Lorinda
Captain Mifune
Joined: Jun 20, 2006
Posts: 2051
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Must be something funky with my machine, then. I knew it might not be a problem, but thought I should check it out.
Lorinda |
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shades
Keymaker
Joined: Aug 18, 2005
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Just to confirm, I have 10.6.3 on my MBP 15" and Raanana font is included. |
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sardisson
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Joined: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 4588
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Apple seems to have unhelpfully discontinued their policy of providing font lists as support documents  (this wiki article has links to the 10.3, 10.4, and 10.5 lists). I tried searching again today and still no 10.6 font list
Smokey
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"[...] whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant." -- ovvldc and sardisson in the NeoWiki |
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pluby
The Architect
Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| sardisson wrote: | | Apple seems to have unhelpfully discontinued their policy of providing font lists as support documents (this wiki article has links to the 10.3, 10.4, and 10.5 lists). I tried searching again today and still no 10.6 font list |
It really does not matter whether it is standard or not as Mac OS X allows users to disable or remove the font.
The key cause of Joeyci's Hebrew rendering problem is that is Joeyci has a Hebrew font that does not support at least one Hebrew character in the sample document. So, instead of relying on Mac OS X to tell us the first font that supports any Hebrew characters, I have just added on extra step before that that checks if Raanana is an active and, if so, try using that font first.
Our code never relies on any font having glyphs for all characters (nearly all fonts only support a very small subset of Unicode characters) nor does it rely on any particular being installed. With fonts, we can only make a reasonable effort to find a suitable replacement font. If all else fails and there no font exists that supports a particular Unicode character (there are some Unicode characters for which there is no Mac OS X bundled font), you will get the "glyph not found" rectangle.
Joeyci,
Can you try the test patch that I posted in this post of mine and tell us if you still see lines that are using the Arial font?
Patrick |
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Joeyci
Sentinel
Joined: May 16, 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:49 pm Post subject: Hebrew font |
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| Sorry to say, but the patch (for my purposes) made things worse. Now the whole document displays in raanana, which is a very different looking font from the one I previously had. |
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Joeyci
Sentinel
Joined: May 16, 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: Hebrew font |
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| Another piece of interesting information: As I type Hebrew documents, at some point a bunch of words will invariably change as is shown in the snapshot I sent. Most of those words that changed to a different font where previously showing in the original font, until I type in whichever letter triggers the change (and it's not the same letter every time). Could this (coupled with the fact that I never had this problem two versions ago) possibly suggest that it's not a character recognition problem that's causing the fallback to a different font? |
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pluby
The Architect
Joined: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 11949
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Hebrew font |
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| Joeyci wrote: | | Sorry to say, but the patch (for my purposes) made things worse. Now the whole document displays in raanana, which is a very different looking font from the one I previously had. |
That is what it is supposed to do. In your case, that issue is that the Palatino font is not a Hebrew font. The fact that you see Raanana proves that Palatino has no Hebrew character support. If NeoOffice displayed the Palatino font, you would only see rectangles where the Hebrew characters are.
Where I think you are confused is that you think Palatino has Hebrew support. It does not. NeoOffice has all along been using the first font that supports Hebrew as a replacement. Unfortunately, the first Hebrew font found on your machine apparently does not support a few of the Hebrew characters so those few characters must then be displayed using Arial.
You cannot control which font is used as the fallback font. What you can control is what font you are requesting to use. That is the font in the Font List dropdown in the toolbar. If your requested font does not support any of the characters in a line (as is the case when Palatino is the requested font for Hebrew characters), NeoOffice must do something as we cannot make Palatino magically support Hebrew characters. All that NeoOffice can do is find a replacement font that does support the characters that your requested font does not support so that the characters are displayed on the screen.
The purpose of this "font fallback" process is not to hide the fact that Palatino or some other font does not support Hebrew or some other language's characters. Instead, its purpose is to highlight the fact that your requested font does not support those characters. The fact that the replacement font stands is clear signal that you need to explicitly find a Hebrew font to use and set your document to use that font.
I hope that makes sense. I understand that you may not
Patrick |
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Joeyci
Sentinel
Joined: May 16, 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: Hebrew font |
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| I do understand that palatino doesn't support Hebrew, what I am still confused about is why the same characters that are sometimes supported by whatever fallback font this is are other times changed to arial (even the very same ones that where previously displayed in the original fallback). Also, why would this phenomenon occur only on the newer versions of neooffice? Thanks again for your responses. |
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